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Thread: The American Cultural Imperative

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    The American Cultural Imperative

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    Politics is control of the language, that much is clear. I would like a concrete example what an American worldview is. If we're going to concern ourselves with facts the least you can do is provide some examples and explain how they: both, fit in to "Worldview;" and also dominate threads and perhaps the consensus message that emerges from this board...
    Dominating the conversation does not necessarily entail such a thing as a coherent consensus message. You are asking for too much. But I will give you an example of domination.

    The view that there is such a thing as a judeo-christian tradition is an example of a Weltanschauung that emanates from the United States of America. This Weltanschauung has gained ground there because some of the christian sects and societies that have been thriving there are neo-judaic in their tendency, meaning that they attempt to construct a christianity more judaic than the traditional christianity of Europe - something like a misch-masch of Christianity and Judaism. But was there ever any such thing as a judeo-christian tradition? It is highly questionable, and certainly there was no such tradition with a massive impact before that idea became a commonplace in the U.S.. The whole Weltanschauung behind it is more often than not simply false, even. A central idea in that Weltanschauung is that the traditions of Christianity and Judaism are intrinsically intertwined, and that is clearly not the case except in a few cases on the fringe of Christianity understood in a loose sense. Please do note that I am discussing tradition. There are of course plenty of Jews in the bible, but if you study the history of Christianity, you will see that the christian tradition was directly polemic against Jews early on. You can even find examples of that same polemic and polarisation in the New Testament, since indeed it is an inherent part of Christianity as such.

    And I have seen examples at the Althing of how even Europeans who spent some time here start believing that there is an ancient judeo-christian tradition, saying they are now convinced of its existence, or that they apply a terminology that they did not use before, and that in the process they adapt their own Weltanschauung to one that is better characterised as american than european.

    I will not link any specific posts, because it is not my intention to poke fingers at anyone in particular. Although I left no such traces here on the Althing, I was myself under the influence of this judeo-christian Weltanschauung for a shorter period of my life, as a consequence of american influences on the academia and the christian churches of Sweden. So it goes way further than being completely black and white, but the fact that this american influence was manifest in Europe since some time makes the whole thing even more serious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    What are the "facts" that have been compromised by American social transgression on this board?
    This is just one example out of the big picture:

    The history of Christianity in the germanic world.



    Another example is the idea that american military occupation will be good for Europe, or even - something that seems ridiculous to me - that the U.S. of A. is trying to save Europe from Islam. What about major recent geopolitical events such as the independence of Kosovo? There may not be as much consensus about this issue here as there is about Christianity, but it is certainly an example of an exaggeratedly influential american Weltanschauung. And the american Weltanschauung repels many Europeans, that they don't post because it would seem weird to say something that breaks completely with what ten people already said about a topic before them, to the point that what you would want to say may not be understood at all. One might even be warned for trolling although one had no such intention.
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    The history of Protestantism and the Church has everything to do with Northern and Central Europeans. It was not imposed by modern day American Christians but rather "Judeo-Chrisitianity" grows out of it, and it started in Europe not in America. From Mennonites to British Israelism. Your personal beliefs not withstanding, I fail to see how one particular American religious movement dominates, no inhabits the words and the very sense of Self that Americans express on this board, some of whom joyfully express heathenistic tendencies or atheistic imperatives.

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    This is a free speech forum, so everyone is free to hold the opinions they want, I believe. If some European viewers are too afraid to enter a discussion because the American point of view differs, it is their own fault and loss if I may say so. If they have a better point to make, I believe they should just make that point. There is no mandatory stance or ideology here. Reluctance to express something because the majority doesn't share the same opinion is a sign of lack of self-confidence.


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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard
    The view that there is such a thing as a judeo-christian tradition is an example of a Weltanschauung that emanates from the United States of America. This Weltanschauung has gained ground there because some of the christian sects and societies that have been thriving there are neo-judaic in their tendency, meaning that they attempt to construct a christianity more judaic than the traditional christianity of Europe - something like a misch-masch of Christianity and Judaism.
    Before anybody responds... could we please frame this discussion in terms of Messianism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talan View Post
    Before anybody responds... could we please frame this discussion in terms of Messianism?
    Your suggestion is relevant to spirituality, but my post does not deal with spirituality, but with tradition, so I humbly object to it.
    God expects but one thing of you,
    and that is that you should come out of yourself in so far as you are a created being made
    and let God be God in you.

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    Senior Member Kreis AnnA's Avatar
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    Messianism, circa 1740.

    Handel's Messiah


    But was there ever any such thing as a judeo-christian tradition? It is highly questionable, and certainly there was no such tradition with a massive impact before that idea became a commonplace in the U.S.. The whole Weltanschauung behind it is more often than not simply false, even. A central idea in that Weltanschauung is that the traditions of Christianity and Judaism are intrinsically intertwined, and that is clearly not the case except in a few cases on the fringe of Christianity understood in a loose sense. Please do note that I am discussing tradition. There are of course plenty of Jews in the bible, but if you study the history of Christianity, you will see that the christian tradition was directly polemic against Jews early on. You can even find examples of that same polemic and polarisation in the New Testament, since indeed it is an inherent part of Christianity as such.
    This polarization reflected Hellenistic tendencies. And unless you are referring to circumcision, I don't see how this at all applies to Americans. If you were to argue that many Americans relate to modern Zionism's mythos of pioneering you might have a better case, since it parallels the first half of American history. But that has nothing to do with American worldviews, except as it relates to Israel. And I use the plural because you have yet to substantiate how any of this coalesces into one, monolithic American view expressed on this board, as thoughtful as your post may be. Not every American posting to this board is pro-Israeli.

    And I have seen examples at the Althing of how even Europeans who spent some time here start believing that there is an ancient judeo-christian tradition, saying they are now convinced of its existence, or that they apply a terminology that they did not use before, and that in the process they adapt their own Weltanschauung to one that is better characterised as american than european.
    So you propose there is an Orthodoxy of Worldview pertinent to all Europeans? I don't see it in the history of Europe, or in current political thought. Again, the history of Christianity in Europe is marked by its decline as a single entity reflecting a single socializing process. When comparing the US to European nations, what is sorely lacking is Secularism. While many view the American media as secular, culturally Americans are a religious people but with different religious movements and views coexisting. This coexistence, however, is not completely unknown to Europeans, is it?

    And what of Swedenborgian tendencies?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg

    http://www.swedenborg.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    The history of Protestantism and the Church has everything to do with Northern and Central Europeans. It was not imposed by modern day American Christians but rather "Judeo-Chrisitianity" grows out of it, and it started in Europe not in America. From Mennonites to British Israelism.
    Yes, and? I said that these were just periferal phenomena in Europe, and that these and similar movements gained a lot more ground in the U.S. of A., and that neo-judaic Christianity in Europe today is thriving (well not exactly, but it exists) due to american influence.

    American independence was a lot about religious freedom(?), and many of those who were into some kind of non-traditional christian spirituality moved to America, where these movements thrived, whereas they remained on the fringe in Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    Your personal beliefs not withstanding,
    Indeed they are not and I do not intend to make them part of the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    I fail to see how one particular American religious movement dominates, no inhabits the words and the very sense of Self that Americans express on this board, some of whom joyfully express heathenistic tendencies or atheistic imperatives.
    I think that the judeo-christian paradigm dominates interpretation of Christianity on the Althing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    Messianism, circa 1740.

    Handel's Messiah
    Is it proving a point?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    This polarization reflected Hellenistic tendencies. And unless you are referring to circumcision, I don't see how this at all applies to Americans. If you were to argue that many Americans relate to modern Zionism's mythos of pioneering you might have a better case, since it parallels the first half of American history. But that has nothing to do with American worldviews, except as it relates to Israel.
    I refer to the above as an answer to this, since it applies perfectly well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    And I use the plural because you have yet to substantiate how any of this coalesces into one, monolithic American view expressed on this board, as thoughtful as your post may be. Not every American posting to this board is pro-Israeli.
    I did not claim that there is one monolithic american view - and it does not follow from my argument. Indeed I said that you are asking for too much; it is unrealistic to expect it given that cultures, not least our germanic cultures in their disintegration, are complex.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    So you propose there is an Orthodoxy of Worldview pertinent to all Europeans? I don't see it in the history of Europe, or in current political thought.
    I never said that. When I say Europe, european etc I am referring to a greater unit, and I explained that even the germanic nations of Europe are highly differentiated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    When comparing the US to European nations, what is sorely lacking is Secularism. While many view the American media as secular, culturally Americans are a religious people but with different religious movements and views coexisting.
    This is dubitable to me, but it is not part of the debate over whether or not Americans dominate at the expense of european germanic national traditions. If Christianity in America is nothing much like traditional Christianity, it matters even less. The laughable as well as gigantic and also decriable performances in Europe by american televangelists, as well as those of their imitators in parks, in town squares etc, funded by zionism while the money they manage to rip from locals go to occupation of palestinian land and the war against terror (yes, just read their pamphlets if you understand swedish; it's not a big secret), actually serve to secularise Europe even more. Anyone in disagreement? I would be surprised...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    This coexistence, however, is not completely unknown to Europeans, is it?
    No. But we don't enjoy full religious freedom in Sweden. Explaining that would go off topic though, and I am pleased with the title of this thread as standing. ^^ To make a long story short, I don't suggest bringing back cesaro-papism or mandatory observance. I propose full religious freedom for the future, while the state and the education system should not take commands from anyone on spiritual matters, or even be obliged to avoid spiritual matters. Spirituality in so far as the state engages in it should be limited to education and to encouragement of the good interests of the nation, and the good in the individual. But as I said, I think it is bordering on off topic anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    He moved to England and did not leave much of a legacy here. Why? Is it relevant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    Yes, and? I said that these were just periferal phenomena in Europe, and that these and similar movements gained a lot more ground in the U.S. of A., and that neo-judaic Christianity in Europe today is thriving (well not exactly, but it exists) due to american influence.

    American independence was a lot about religious freedom(?), and many of those who were into some kind of non-traditional christian spirituality moved to America, where these movements thrived, whereas they remained on the fringe in Europe....I think that the judeo-christian paradigm dominates interpretation of Christianity on the Althing.
    Evangelical Protestantism is indeed an American phenomenon. However, the Evangelical movement represents approx. one quarter of religious Americans. About the same proportion each for European Protestantism and Catholicism in the US. You make the assertion that Judeo-Christianity predominates on this board, but I haven't seen this in many discussions. And on a personal note I certainly haven't promoted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    I did not claim that there is one monolithic american view - and it does not follow from my argument. Indeed I said that you are asking for too much; it is unrealistic to expect it given that cultures, not least our germanic cultures in their disintegration, are complex.
    Fair enough. However this contradicts your assertion that "the judeo-christian paradigm dominates interpretation of Christianity on the Althing." How do you reconcile the dissonance between these two statements?


    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    The laughable as well as gigantic and also decriable performances in Europe by american televangelists, as well as those of their imitators in parks, in town squares etc, funded by zionism while the money they manage to rip from locals go to occupation of palestinian land and the war against terror (yes, just read their pamphlets if you understand swedish; it's not a big secret), actually serve to secularise Europe even more. Anyone in disagreement? I would be surprised...
    If you are attempting one fell swoop here, I have to stop you. Most money collected for religion stays within religions. It's a matter of self-perpetuation and aggrandizement. But you are right in the respect that it's no secret that Evangelicals are unapologetically Zionist. And if they are that pathetic and transparent it's so much easier for Europeans to ignore. Isn't it? Aren't Europeans anti-Islamic for their own reasons? Don't they assert a host of religious beliefs from European understandings?


    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    No. But we don't enjoy full religious freedom in Sweden. Explaining that would go off topic though, and I am pleased with the title of this thread as standing. ^^ To make a long story short, I don't suggest bringing back cesaro-papism or mandatory observance. I propose full religious freedom for the future, while the state and the education system should not take commands from anyone on spiritual matters, or even be obliged to avoid spiritual matters. Spirituality in so far as the state engages in it should be limited to education and to encouragement of the good interests of the nation, and the good in the individual. But as I said, I think it is bordering on off topic anyway.
    The reason why I bring up Handel and Swedenborg is that Messianic spirituality arose in Europe before and despite Zionism or Judaism. I am pleased that this thread exists because it's reason enough to explore Zionist conspiracies as much as Masonic ones, for that matter. Both are typically attributed to the fuller face of the American Cultural Imperative. What makes you say that Sweden is intolerant? Is it because of the American Cultural Imperative?

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    Many Zionist havent been Jewish, things like Anglo-Israelism do come to mind, as some British have been involved with elite Jews like the Rothchilds for a long time now.

    So I just wanted to add that the Freemason origins and main headquarters is in Britain and always has been, more specifically Scotland. The Bilderberg is also European. Group Zionism also flourished in places like Britain, France Germany and Russia, were many prominate jews were able to create a living condition favorable to them, so its not like they werent strong in Europe and magically arose in America. The Soviet Union was for the most godless and a jewish product, due to Marxism via Lenin and Trotsky ect.

    I really cannot see what American politics has to do with Scandinavia, there really isnt much contact nor influence aside from media but that also swings both ways. The Liberalism and Secularism present in Scandinavia is home grown for the most part I'd say, so the shifting of self-responsibility is erroneous. If anything they are influencing Britain which is in turn influencing the USA, as Britain and the USA as they remain very close politically and many of the upper class's are actually related through blood and/or finances..also with the Jews and Arabs for that matter. Its kinda like one big milk shake, with shades of grey rather than black and white.

    Certain Evangelicals helped fund the Nazi party which prided itself on the mingling of non-jewish Socialism, Italian Fascism and Christian and even Ancient Pagan Germanic traditions ect. Many in the USA helped bankroll the NSDAP, people like the Kennedy's, Fords and Bush's as prime examples and other wealthy Americans and British aristocrats aided in its construction & formation. Hitler admired colonial Britain and early 20th century American Eugenics policies. One of the NSDAP's original plans was to create a Jewish state in Palestine or Africa..but because the way the war turned out, they kept them in concentration camps. Which is where the living conditions deteriorated more and more as the cost of attrition cost dearly for the unfortunates in the camps as the war lagged on and on as they were losing the war and so the Holocaust propaganda and such.

    The current concept and term of "Judeo-Christianity" is really modern, used only in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and gained wide spread current popular PC usage post WW2. Is mostly alien to the majority of everyday Christians, least Roman Catholics I can speak for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    Evangelical Protestantism is indeed an American phenomenon. However, the Evangelical movement represents approx. one quarter of religious Americans. About the same proportion each for European Protestantism and Catholicism in the US. You make the assertion that Judeo-Christianity predominates on this board, but I haven't seen this in many discussions. And on a personal note I certainly haven't promoted it.
    No, I said the judeo-christian paradigm, as a historical revision that is, predominates in interpretations of Christianity here. There's a difference. It's a scheme of interpretation, and within that scheme you can still hold different positions.



    Fair enough. However this contradicts your assertion that "the judeo-christian paradigm dominates interpretation of Christianity on the Althing." How do you reconcile the dissonance between these two statements?
    What was the subject of my argument on Christianity at the Althing was the views on the history of Christianity. That's one single question and what you were asking for was something completely different. Also, you cannot expect the american cultural imperative or expansion to be a straight story. When I referred to the american Weltanschauung, I did a great deal of extrapolation, but the main idea, as far as it concerns the conversations on the Althing, was that as I perceive it Americans have a rather unified code of speech that also quite often comes along with its own "facts". That is something I can live with, although I should not have to buy these facts if they are in conflict with my situation, and I also think it should be alright to discuss that as a problem.




    If you are attempting one fell swoop here, I have to stop you. Most money collected for religion stays within religions. It's a matter of self-perpetuation and aggrandizement. But you are right in the respect that it's no secret that Evangelicals are unapologetically Zionist. And if they are that pathetic and transparent it's so much easier for Europeans to ignore. Isn't it? Aren't Europeans anti-Islamic for their own reasons? Don't they assert a host of religious beliefs from European understandings?
    A problem here is the corruption of swedish authorities, something I blame Swedes for more than anyone else. But it is relevant also to this discussion since most of those zionist fringe movements of Christianity had no difficulties attaining official status as religious societies here, and hence they also receive massive funding from the state. There is an american influence in this as well, since the winners of two world wars played the "wars" of ideology and ethnopolitics in the hands of zionism, and America played no small part in that. Sad but true. I don't blame individual Americans who oppose these wrongs for them though, just like I don't want to be blamed for everything that the corrupt and evil government of Sweden is up to.




    The reason why I bring up Handel and Swedenborg is that Messianic spirituality arose in Europe before and despite Zionism or Judaism. I am pleased that this thread exists because it's reason enough to explore Zionist conspiracies as much as Masonic ones, for that matter. Both are typically attributed to the fuller face of the American Cultural Imperative. What makes you say that Sweden is intolerant? Is it because of the American Cultural Imperative?
    Intolerant is not the proper word for it in my opinion. I prefer "corrupt", and the corruption involved here is that the state decides what organisations are recognised as religious societies, and subsequently those elected societies get massive funding from the state. The one religious society that gets more funding than any other one is the "Church of Sweden" that promotes multi-culti and a host of other evils. The state uses the church as its propaganda bureau, and officially they come clean from state church corruption, because written it is that it is no longer a state church... although in practice it is. That's a very dirty way to make corruption "democratic".

    No wonder people don't care much about institutional religion when the traditional lutheran church sold out its tradition and its self-sufficiency completely. Sold out is not even the right way to put it. It was forced from above. The priests are employed by the state, and if you don't want to play along, you're fired.

    The american cultural imperative or expansion does not always have to play the lead. Sweden has old connections with Germany though, and that's one way in which the bad things that came to Germany also affected Sweden. Local politicians made it possible, and Sweden had terrible social democratic dominance of government ever since the 1930's. That's an even more powerful explanation of what went wrong in our case, if you ask me, but other nationalists sometimes disagree with me on that.

    About messianism, there is something of the sort in traditional Christianity as well. Christ is greek for Messiah, both denoting the king, but the detailed interpretation of this differs greatly between Judaism and Christianity.
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