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Thread: Children Born Out of Wedlock

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    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jute View Post
    This just raises more questions :
    Shoot.

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    Senior Member Jute's Avatar
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    1. How does Marriage not follow logically with the theory of evolution.
    2. How does Marriage not follow your own observations of human nature.

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    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jute View Post
    1. How does Marriage not follow logically with the theory of evolution.
    2. How does Marriage not follow your own observations of human nature.
    1.) One mechanism which drives the phenomenon of natural selection is the process of sexual selection, whereby individual organisms select mates based on traits which will give the offspring a greater chance of survival. Such traits are not distributed evenly among the population, and so in a system where sexual partners are evenly distributed throughout the population, the benefits of natural selection are inhibited, which is eventually reflected negatively in society.

    2.) Roughly half of marriages (atleast in the US) end up in divorce. We can assume that a significant percentage of the intact marriages have major flaws such as infidelity, being based on social or financial mobility, or being brought upon rashly because of pregnancies. When the majority of such arrangements are so severely and consistently breached, it makes me wonder whether such an arrangement is suitable for many people.

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    Senior Member Kreis AnnA's Avatar
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    I was the daughter of a teenage pregnancy. My mother had me the day after her seventeenth birthday while my father was dizzy from that fact that he was an eighteen year old husband with a family to feed. They went on to become hippies and eventually grew out of that, but gave me two brothers in the process. Whatever they did, how ever they did it, we all turned out just fine.

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    Senior Member MockTurtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    1.) One mechanism which drives the phenomenon of natural selection is the process of sexual selection, whereby individual organisms select mates based on traits which will give the offspring a greater chance of survival. Such traits are not distributed evenly among the population, and so in a system where sexual partners are evenly distributed throughout the population, the benefits of natural selection are inhibited, which is eventually reflected negatively in society.
    IMO, this isn't very good reasoning. How is it reflected negatively in society?

    As you've said, in humankind, mate choice involves selecting a sexual partner in order to ensure successful reproduction -- i.e. producing offspring which will eventually have the means necessary to reproduce itself again, and so forth ad infinitum. To make sure that this happens, one has to invest the proper amount of resources/energy to give the offspring the greatest possible chance at survival. Monogamy (at least in Western European populations) has served this specific purpose, it has generally increased the probability of reproductive success because it allows resources/energy to be concentrated on the offspring from a single partner. Also, the attachment to the offspring is almost certainly greater due to the stronger bonds between monogamous parents. Around the globe, this tendency is more developed in certain populations than it is in others (i.e. r/K Theory).

    Where do you see the negativity in this?


    2.) Roughly half of marriages (atleast in the US) end up in divorce. We can assume that a significant percentage of the intact marriages have major flaws such as infidelity, being based on social or financial mobility, or being brought upon rashly because of pregnancies. When the majority of such arrangements are so severely and consistently breached, it makes me wonder whether such an arrangement is suitable for many people.
    Realistically, it probably isn't suitable for a great many people today in our current society. People who weren't brought up with a living example of a strong, intact marriage from their parents, probably aren't going to be psychologically capable of such a marriage themselves. As this is only becoming more and more common, it makes sense that the pool of potential 'marriage candidates' is continually shrinking.

    Regardless though, this doesn't mean that 'marriage is bad' or that it isn't a very viable evolutionary adaptation. It just means that many individuals aren't cut out for it.

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    Children born out of wedlock

    Much depends on WHEN the child was born. Illegitimacy is not the disgrace and does not have the stigma attached to it which it did when I was a child. My mother tried to burden me with her guilt and shame [which was absurd; she was a rape victim.] I refused to accept the burden and ignored my illegitimacy until I was 65 years old.

    Then, in order to collect Social Security, I had to change my name legally to the one which I had always used, which is NOT the one on my birth certificate. I managed to have this done without embarrassing her. It would, in any case, not have embarrassed me at all. Certainly, I have never felt at all responsible for my own illegitimacy.

    I have a much younger friend who freely admits his illegitimacy if the question of why his surname is the same as his mother's comes up in conversation. He is obviously not embarrassed by it at all. It has been a very long time since I last heard a child born out of wedlock stigmatised by being called a bastard.

    This may be a result of the prevalence of bastardy these days, but, at least, it is fairer to the child who is in no way at fault.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Cuchulain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MockTurtle View Post
    IMO, this isn't very good reasoning. How is it reflected negatively in society?

    As you've said, in humankind, mate choice involves selecting a sexual partner in order to ensure successful reproduction -- i.e. producing offspring which will eventually have the means necessary to reproduce itself again, and so forth ad infinitum. To make sure that this happens, one has to invest the proper amount of resources/energy to give the offspring the greatest possible chance at survival. Monogamy (at least in Western European populations) has served this specific purpose, it has generally increased the probability of reproductive success because it allows resources/energy to be concentrated on the offspring from a single partner. Also, the attachment to the offspring is almost certainly greater due to the stronger bonds between monogamous parents. Around the globe, this tendency is more developed in certain populations than it is in others (i.e. r/K Theory).

    Where do you see the negativity in this?




    Realistically, it probably isn't suitable for a great many people today in our current society. People who weren't brought up with a living example of a strong, intact marriage from their parents, probably aren't going to be psychologically capable of such a marriage themselves. As this is only becoming more and more common, it makes sense that the pool of potential 'marriage candidates' is continually shrinking.

    Regardless though, this doesn't mean that 'marriage is bad' or that it isn't a very viable evolutionary adaptation. It just means that many individuals aren't cut out for it.
    the r/k theory was applicable in the prehistoric ice age, in the modern western world, a healthy monogamous relationship between parents is actually inhibitory to successful reproduction of their children because higher classes tend to have less children and at a later age. Quite obvious if you compare birth rates in the first and third world. The kids born to teenage mothers get what they need to stay alive to reproductive age because it is provided by the state. Also civilization has advanced to the point where the amount of time one needs to work to provide resources is less than when the r/k theory shaped human evolution. All in all its time of relevance has passed both naturally, and because man-imposed mechanisms such as welfare. how is it reflected negatively in society? because crackheads are breeding like rabbits while doctors and other valuable members barely have enough kids to replace themselves after they die.

    Your pretty much repeating what I said in your own words. most people aren't cut out for such a lifestyle. not necessarily a bad thing. most people aren't cut out to fly or live underwater either.

  8. #18
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    I was born out of wedlock-ish. My parents ended up marrying when I was 1 1/2 years old, only to divorce less than a year later. It wouldn't have really made a difference if they hadn't married, not last because my father took my mother's name upon marriage (only to get his own back upon divorce) in order to both allow me to have dual citizenship of Austria and Germany and to spare me bearing the most common surname in all of Austria. Little difference though save for the cosmetic matter than I count as a legitimate child for all legal purposes - which doesn't make much of a difference anyway since the differences between legitimate and illegitimate children have been legally abolished for the most part; though it obviously has its bearing in other matters, such as heraldic heritage.

    Often people marry just because they expect a child, but it is better to evaluate first whether the marriage is likely to last, if there is overwhelming doubt to that it is actually more advisable to separate beforehand, it would allow the mother to find another father figure with whom the child can bond. For the only thing worse than a child growing up with only one parent, is really to raise it in an unhappy marriage - even if it's "for the child's sake", chances are it will notice the tension and it's childhood will be no happier for it anyway, importance of a male and female role model aside. Harsh as it is, my own moral ideas of how a child should have two parents, no male role model or a substitute role model is a better option than a bad role model.

    If the parents would have married at some point anyway and feel confident that it will last and they will bring up a child together in a positive and happy family union, then it is however advisable that they do so either before the child is born or reasonably soon after, also because it gives either spouse a better legal protection and position as to the child.

    For if you're going to marry and then separate fairly soon again, then the child will be no better off for it, and you've all the legal troubles of a divorce to go through, including having to prove "irretrievable breakdown" or "behaviour" in absence of other factors leading to a divorce.

    On the other hand, being married generally has the effect that the parties married feel under a higher obligation to reconcile in times of strife, which obviously also has a bearing on the child.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
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    Senior Member CrystalRose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreis AnnA View Post
    I was the daughter of a teenage pregnancy. My mother had me the day after her seventeenth birthday while my father was dizzy from that fact that he was an eighteen year old husband with a family to feed. They went on to become hippies and eventually grew out of that, but gave me two brothers in the process. Whatever they did, how ever they did it, we all turned out just fine.

    Yeah, I feel that no matter the siuation bad or good somehow parents always seem to make it work. You have to. And for that, parents rock. :p

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    Senior Member MockTurtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulain View Post
    the r/k theory was applicable in the prehistoric ice age, in the modern western world, a healthy monogamous relationship between parents is actually inhibitory to successful reproduction of their children because higher classes tend to have less children and at a later age. Quite obvious if you compare birth rates in the first and third world.
    Successful reproduction has nothing to do with numbers; from what I can tell, that's what you seem to be implying here. If two parents from the higher classes raise a single child who manages to reach comparable or higher social status and starts a family of his own, then the parents have successfully reproduced themselves. Modern conditions in the West haven't rendered monogamous marital relationships futile, they have just altered the survival rate of the less intelligent; that's quite different from 'successful reproduction' per se.


    The kids born to teenage mothers get what they need to stay alive to reproductive age because it is provided by the state.
    I agree that this is certainly a problem.


    Also civilization has advanced to the point where the amount of time one needs to work to provide resources is less than when the r/k theory shaped human evolution.
    Hmmm.. Is this true across the board? Are you using a 'universal yardstick' to measure all types of work in the same manner? IMO, if you are, that's probably not the best approach.

    Anywho, I'm not sure I agree on any level that less time is required to provide resources in our modern civilization. In the modern world, life expectancy has increased dramatically, with the result that many people have delayed childraising until later ages, commonly in the interest of providing a better future for the offspring. Moreover, when you consider all of the educational requirements in the modern world in order to advance economically, I don't see how this can be described as requiring 'less time' to gather sufficient resources.

    Perhaps you can clarify a little it would be helpful.


    All in all its time of relevance has passed both naturally, and because man-imposed mechanisms such as welfare. how is it reflected negatively in society? because crackheads are breeding like rabbits while doctors and other valuable members barely have enough kids to replace themselves after they die.
    I'm not disagreeing at all that this sort of situation is very troubling, but it seems to me that you're conflating several distinct concepts here.

    The issue at hand is the evolutionary adaptation of the monogamous marital relationship in the modern world. The point you're making in the above passage isn't really an argument against the utility of monogamous relationships, but a recognition of the clear dysgenic tendencies in modern society. Dysgenic reproduction is a big problem, but by itself this isn't a direct argument against monogamy. Monogamy itelf is not to blame for the low birthrates among the higher classes and the high birthrates among the unintelligent. You're imposing a causal link where there isn't one in reality.

    Otherwise, what are you proposing, that doctors and other professionals engage in polygamy and also 'breed like rabbits' to compete with the underclasses?

    IMO, that's a VERY bad strategy. Dysgenic reproduction can be healed without dissolving the evolutionary strategy of monogamy and high-investment parenting by Western Europeans in the modern world. The idea shouldn't be to 'compete' with the underclasses in terms of numbers; the idea should be to remove those social forces responsible for either encouraging or allowing such dysgenic behavior to continue undisturbed.


    Your pretty much repeating what I said in your own words. most people aren't cut out for such a lifestyle. not necessarily a bad thing. most people aren't cut out to fly or live underwater either.
    Well, I think that it is a bad thing, at least in the bigger picture.

    Partly, it is the consequence of confusion and failed communication between generations; on the other hand, it is also the result of dysgenic behavior which has lead to a great increase in unstable households and socially harmful lifestyles that will create tremendous problems in the future. After all, those 'doctors' and professionals you're talking about tend to come from the sort of stable households with monogamous parents.

    Like I've said, historically Western Europeans have developed a social situation characterized by stable, monogamous 'pair-bonds' in which children have an exceptionally intense connection to the parents. At the larger societal level, they have harmonized this reproductive strategy with a unique style of community structure which has emphasized individual development and participation.

    I don't know exactly what you envision as a substitute for this strategy; would you like to give your ideas?

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