View Poll Results: Should "degenerate" art be banned, in your opinion?

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  • Yes, it should be banned.

    43 37.39%
  • No, it shouldn't be banned.

    56 48.70%
  • Other opinion/I want to see the votes.

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Thread: Should "Degenerate Art" Be Banned?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorm the Old View Post
    I don't favour banning even the most degenerate art that I have seen. There are ways for the public to make their displeasure felt if a work of degenerate art offends the norms of public taste.

    If the work is displayed in a private gallery, resolve never to buy anything there. If it is displayed in a publicly-funded gallery, complain to the funding agency. If this doesn't work, then the majority probably isn't with you.So, look the other way.

    There is real trash displayed in both private and public galleries. It is there at least partly because somebody buys it. Or, it has received favourable reviews from the critics. Critics are talentless wannabes. Their opinions are worthless. Nonetheless, GOK why, they are influential.
    I understand your reasoning. However, its very upsetting to see "art" depicting homosexual acts, bestiality and other obscenities. I can't even describe the type of "art" displayed in some galleries. Anyone who looks at such "art" must be depraved

    There will always be sickos who look at obscenity and I think such "art" should be banned. . You can complain to the funding gallery all you want but they are largely controlled by Jews, homosexuals and other liberals. Its a communist goal to promote degenerate art as it corrupts society.

  2. #22
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Who even sees that stuff anyways, unless they specifically go looking for it?
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    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

  3. #23
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    I was a represenational artist who quickly figured out that the art establishment had ruined my chances of making a living.

    I dropped my brush and took up yoga. I was looking for something more tangible.

    An old artist friend of mine whose lover was the famous anti-fascist Arthur Koestler said, "These days one could shit on a plate and paint it blue and someone would buy it!"

    Old Daph was really the tail end of the Bloomsbury group, moving into Cubism, so she was hardly Arno Breker, but she was brilliant at figuration and her work is in the National Portrait Gallery. Time and time again she found her rightful place being usurped by monsters like Sir Anthony Caro. She had won her place at the Royal Academy at age 14 and she kept drawing and working right up to the day she died.

    The source of the trouble is public funding and it must stop.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Mazorquero's Avatar
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    We should understand the concept under which this laws were made. Germany needed a cultural resurrection, just as we need it today. If your people is heavily desilutioned with the world they're living in, showing them images in which that kind of enviroment is encouraged (a chaotic one) and in which legacies are considered to be a troglodite thing (this was openly expressed by futurists), you simply can't expect peope to choose correctly between what's nice or not.
    Censorship was necessary in that moment, but remember also that at the same time that censorship existed, more classical forms of art were encouraged, specially those depicting nationalism, perhaps in a way closer to Renacentism, so it wasn't simply "Oh! They are censoring art". It was more of a massive education.
    I do agree on not banning everything, I for example don't consider Surrealism to be degenerate; from all te modern art styles it's the only one I like, and very much, but again, in that moment it was necessary. After a time, when people has been instructed peoperly about their customs, heritage and art, censorship should be gradually removed and let people choose according to their tastes. They would be enough mature to realise that Guernica can be a funny display of squares instead of a "great artwork showing the savage nature of the megalomaniac regime".

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortis_in_Arduis View Post
    I was a represenational artist who quickly figured out that the art establishment had ruined my chances of making a living.
    Did you consider becoming a member of the Royal Academy? There is still a market for that kind of work. It is even possible, though rare, for an Academician to break into the "mainstream" art market Lucien Freud did just that, and he's minted...

    I dropped my brush and took up yoga. I was looking for something more tangible.
    You're probably a well off.Imo if making art doesn't give you immense satisfaction then there is little or no point in doing it.



    The source of the trouble is public funding and it must stop.
    I don't disagree with ceasing public funding, however I'm not so sure that doing so would achieve much of anything, beyond the admittedly useful benefit of saving public money.

    Here's why; The public funding of art does not lead the art market but is involved in at most a reciprocal relationship with it. Museums tend to buy (at much reduced rates) the work of artists who are already up and coming names on the international art scene rather than no-name artists.
    It is true that Artists who can claim to have there work included in the permanent collections of national museums receive and extra boost to their careers, but it is by no means the major factor in their success. The condition of the British scene today owes more to Charles Saatchi and friends than to the director of the Tate modern.

    Furthermore, ceasing public funding is unlikely alter the type of art that gets made, as in fact public funding currently makes up only a small percentage of the total Art market, most of it consists of corporations, foundations, and private individuals. All it would mean is that the public museums would be sold off and an entrance fee would have to be paid in order to look at the art.

    What effect this change would have on society is debatable I suspect that would be no noticeable effect at all.

  6. #26
    Senior Member MockTurtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Horned God
    Arno Brecker's idealised visions in marble of Northern European man bestriding his world like a colossus (literally) in classical greek style does have some validity in art-critical terms, especially if you think about how European culture, perhaps more than any other, has been concerned with moulding the material world and the world of ideas to suit itself. However, Brecker's is only one view-point and this type of "optimistic" art cannot be expected to encompass the total reality of how man, even Nordic man, relates to his environment.
    That may very well be true, but in my opinion you're making a mistake by isolating the 'artistic' element from the larger evolutionary picture of the situation. The reason that Hitler and NSists decided to publicly censor certain pieces of art wasn't because they were unaware of different viewpoints on reality; it also wan't because they were ignorant of the overall modern condition of uncertainty and nihilism.

    Hitler knew that art played an essential function in the collective spiritual and cultural life of a people. The culture of a race at any particular point in time is a good indication of where that race is heading in the future. If the culture consciously and actively embraces the sort of 'uncertainty' that you describe (as modern art today does), how will it be able to protect and defend the race from those who might seek to corrupt it through exposure to negative influences? Moreover, if the race is unable to keep itself psychologically balanced and sure of its place in the world, how can it compete effectively against other races who do possess these qualities? As Hitler recognized, the condition of art is integral to overall survival of a specific people, because it partially determines their spiritual outlook on life. The "entartete kunst" exhibit was his way of taking the upper-hand and actively fighting against this modern tendency towards the adoption of nihilism (which eventually results in racial pollution).

    In other words, if properly guided, art can be a potential source for 'resistance' against these decadent modern tendencies which are leading towards the destruction of Northern European man altogether; this is because every individual aspect of our civilization is interrelated and connected to other things. Our older source of spiritual certainty (i.e. the Christian "God") has clearly broken down, which is exactly why we needed another means to give us the sort of vitality necessary to maintain ourselves in an increasingly hostile and crowded modern world. Entartete kunst was just a creative attempt to push things in that direction...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MockTurtle View Post
    That may very well be true, but in my opinion you're making a mistake by isolating the 'artistic' element from the larger evolutionary picture of the situation. The reason that Hitler and NSists decided to publicly censor certain pieces of art wasn't because they were unaware of different viewpoints on reality; it also wan't because they were ignorant of the overall modern condition of uncertainty and nihilism.
    If you take the individual artistic element out, then whatever else you have (state propaganda, or visual communication) you no longer have "Art" as the term is commonly understood.

    I never meant to claim that the National Socialists were ignorant of the range of view points contrary to their own, merely that sought to suppress them.

    Hitler knew that art played an essential function in the collective spiritual and cultural life of a people. The culture of a race at any particular point in time is a good indication of where that race is heading in the future.
    Agreed. Art functions as a touch stone to tell us where we are.

    If the culture consciously and actively embraces the sort of 'uncertainty' that you describe (as modern art today does), how will it be able to protect and defend the race from those who might seek to corrupt it through exposure to negative influences?
    That's a good question. However I don't think that banning art is the solution. For one thing I think it is highly questionable that "Fine Art" has any measurable effect on society at all.
    Regarding negative cultural influences in general, I would say that it is not possible to deal effectively with those influences simply by suppressing them from above, to do so only creates underground movements.

    The objective should be to create an informed citizenry who are confident and capable of making up their own minds on the issues pertinent to their lives.If they still want to be national socialist then I say good for them, but if they only want to be NS because they have been deliberately kept ignorant of any other possible way of life then that's not good, and ultimately not sustainable.

    Moreover, if the race is unable to keep itself psychologically balanced and sure of its place in the world, how can it compete effectively against other races who do possess these qualities?
    The answer to uncertainty is not to proclaim that there is no uncertainty, any more than to say that because you don't like reality that you will ignore reality. That approach can only lead to disaster imo. By trying to control the direction of Art, Hitler appeared to be trying to mould reality itself, not realising ,apparently, that art is the product of the reality more so than reality being the product of art. Inspite of the enduring myth Art doesn't change to world at most it tells us about our world from one particular vantage-point.


    As Hitler recognized, the condition of art is integral to overall survival of a specific people, because it partially determines their spiritual outlook on life.
    I'm afraid I disagree again, art does not determine the spiritual outlook of a people, authentic art reflects the outlook (spiritual and otherwise) of the artist, the people at large may find something relevant in it, that resonates with their own lives, or they may not.

    The "entartete kunst" exhibit was his way of taking the upper-hand and actively fighting against this modern tendency towards the adoption of nihilism (which eventually results in racial pollution).
    The way to fight any modern tendency,imo, is not to ban it but to offer alternatives.

    In other words, if properly guided, art can be a potential source for 'resistance' against these decadent modern tendencies which are leading towards the destruction of Northern European man altogether; this is because every individual aspect of our civilization is interrelated and connected to other things. Our older source of spiritual certainty (i.e. the Christian "God") has clearly broken down, which is exactly why we needed another means to give us the sort of vitality necessary to maintain ourselves in an increasingly hostile and crowded modern world. Entartete kunst was just a creative attempt to push things in that direction...
    The idea of a state trying to coerce artists to create only art that supports this or that moral-value, and crushing all decent, might make sense in terms of propaganda but it makes no sense at all in terms of art. The "art" created by such means may function very well as a form of visual communication between the state apparatus and the people but as a mode of individual expression it is robbed of any authenticity. European Rulers from Augustus onward have tried to effect similar coercion and it has always come off as false and hollow. In Soviet Russia It certainly didn't lead to the creation of much of anything that could be called art, and baring one or two of Arno Breckers better works it didn't come off convincingly in NS Germany either imho.

    People in general don't trust in proclamations of certainly coming from god or the pope any longer and they certainly won't buy them coming from the state or from an Artist.
    The time for an Arno Brecker style of art if it comes at all will be mid way through the reign of a confident and powerful thousand-year Reich populated by people who are a lot fitter in mind and body than we are today and when the values depicted have therefor proven themselves. Then love it or hate it, the art will be successful and authentic on it own terms.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Angharad's Avatar
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    Regarding the Entartete Kunst exhibit, more than 3 million people attended, including Hitler.



    The show actually toured again in 1991, I saw it at LACMA, which included a lot of interesting Nazi ephemera from the original show. Some the of art was gross, but compared to what is considered degenerate art today it was actually kind of tame.

    But seriously, some of the Nazi sponsored art seems kind of degenerate to me too, for instance this:


    This is Ivo Saliger's "Judgement of Paris." A quote about it "Saliger portrayed Paris dressed in a Hitler Youth uniform as he decided upon the most beautiful example of Aryan womanhood." Sure it is classical art, but come on, what kind of whores get undressed to decide who is the most beautiful? This is a nothing but a Nazi version of "rate my rack."

    Anyway, I probably see more art than most, I go to a gallery show or museum a few times a month, most of it isn't that good, but not degenerate or disgusting. The only reason museums show the gross stuff is that it draws crowds and generates revenue. I've been to a Kincaid gallery show, it was nice, but not exactly a crowd of 3 million (although he probably sells 3 million calendars/magnets/etc a year).

    I don't see the "degenerate" art as a problem, most of the people who view it are mature adults who can make their own decisions. Sure, we can make all publicly funded art nothing but cupcakes and kittens, but I don't think that addresses the problem. Degenerate media (movies, tv, music etc) is a bigger problem in my opinion, since young kids are exposed to it all the time.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Geribeetus's Avatar
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    Another [Please watch your tongue with the insulting words ~ Siebenbürgerin.] libertarian thread.

    Yes, it should be banned, permanently. Quite frankly I think the idea of every type of art being open to everyone is an obscenely stupid idea. Seems like a childish Utopian Egalitarian dream. Most people do not have the intellectual and moral fortitude to take such art for what it is and reject it without being effected by it. The modern man cannot control his subconscious to the degree of our ancestors, and thus he ends up so profoundly impacted by such things of absolutely no spiritual value. The promotion of any other type of Nihilism or moral degeneration should be banned as well, lest we end up again where we are today.

    The ends justify the means. If some art obsessed losers have to go without their ugly post modern paintings, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angharad View Post


    This is Ivo Saliger's "Judgement of Paris." A quote about it "Saliger portrayed Paris dressed in a Hitler Youth uniform as he decided upon the most beautiful example of Aryan womanhood." Sure it is classical art, but come on, what kind of whores get undressed to decide who is the most beautiful? This is a nothing but a Nazi version of "rate my rack."
    Wow, that isn't a childish conclusion at all.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angharad View Post
    But seriously, some of the Nazi sponsored art seems kind of degenerate to me too, for instance this:


    This is Ivo Saliger's "Judgement of Paris." A quote about it "Saliger portrayed Paris dressed in a Hitler Youth uniform as he decided upon the most beautiful example of Aryan womanhood." Sure it is classical art, but come on, what kind of whores get undressed to decide who is the most beautiful? This is a nothing but a Nazi version of "rate my rack."
    I agree with you and this also raises the question: what is degenerate art? Does the degenerate lay in what it strictly shows, or in how it's interpreted? Because art is a matter of interpretation too. It was a curious thing that in history class, when we studied the NS era, the guys made comments during break times that Arno Breker and the other NS artists must have had homosexual tendencies because they represented nude men in their art and had a fascination with ancient Greece which tolerated homosexuality. So to them, this kind of art was probably degenerate. :

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