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Thread: The Future of the European Union

  1. #31
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    The Treaty necessitates by law (?) that ALL States should agree to it.
    This seems unlikely to happen if ratification is by referedum. How many members are there in the EU anyway, 16 or more. No way all those nations will come to a unanimous decision on treaty ratification without some sort of coercion being used. As a faraway observer I have a hard time understanding how the EU functions. The EU Parliament doesn't seem to have any real power or function. The real power is in Brussels but just who whelds that power?

    It's possible that the politicians of Europe will very quietly change the whole structure of the EU to rid away with national referedums & reduce the parliaments of Westminster, Berlin etc... to subservient status. I remember the European Economic Community or Common Market as it was called. The it was replaced by the European Union, quite suddenly it seemed to me. None of the member states of the old Common Market joined ( at least not to the general public) with the idea that the EEC was just transitional phase into a European superstate. I doubt the European Union will go away quietly in the near future because the European political elite want a European superstate & will attempt to go around the will of the people to achieve it.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Cythraul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrymheim View Post
    some group somewhere wants to create a European super-state, and they will not allow petty problems like the will of the people to interfere.
    This pretty much sums up my views on the matter. Regardless of whether it's democratic or in the interests of the member states or not, there will always be a group pushing to compound nations. It may be that the EU (or it's current incarnation) will fail, but I have no doubt that a successor of some sort would attempt to fill its void. In short, there will always be some looming EU-type entity, and most European countries (or their elite, as I should say) will always be drawn towards it. The only variable will be whether the patriots of a nation allow their country's sovereignty to be sold or not. My guess is that the EU learnt a lesson with Ireland and I very much doubt the Irish will be given such an opportunity to speak again.
    "If by being a racialist, you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man that believes one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically no." - Enoch Powell

  3. #33
    Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    What usually happens is called the EuroFudge! Nations are agreeing through their Parliaments - most would not dare to have a Referendum! Look at Britain where Labour said we would - and then changed its mind! I agree that it is unstable and economics and central financial control will create crisis in Italy. There has already been talk of dumping the Euro! Problem is, treaty agreements have legal teeth; troublesome nations are confronted by the possibility ( actuality) of legal and financial counteractions! This is the threat ; even our immigration policy is governed by Euro-Laws! ( Human Rights etc) Little by little power is slipping away. European Law takes precedence!! ---- some call it treason , who cares?

    Ossi is right in a way. Frau Merkel , German 'conservative' PM, has a big thing about belonging to the Wider and Greater EU eyes: ( friendly, cosy belonging I suppose ). Look how they dumped the D Mark!( Now ,however, the Euro is also 'strong' - but that creates its own problems!) But this wider integration is a nonsense; such diverse nations can never properly co-ordinate their economies effectively. Something seems certain to go wrong somewhere - & it will all blow up in their faces!! I might even favour a smaller block of like nations - Germany & Greater Holland is often mentioned, Austria maybe ...?? others there. Perhaps not Denmark? --I am guessing Who knows , maybe not.

    But the whole show -- it's intrinsically unstable, methinks!

    Anyway - I have made this a sticky ; it will remain for updates !! eyes:

  4. #34
    Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    EU treaty should be dropped, say British voters

    Brussels
    Telegraph 18/06/2008

    British voters want Gordon Brown to scrap moves to ratify the European Union’s Lisbon Treaty, a new poll has disclosed.

    The study piles fresh pressure on the Prime Minister to abandon the treaty in the wake of Ireland’s rejection of it in a referendum last week.

    According to a YouGov poll carried out after the Irish result was announced on Friday, 54 per cent of British voters now believe the Government should drop the Lisbon Treaty - which would sweep away dozens of national vetoes - and not try to ratify it.

    Only 14 per cent of those questioned agreed (!!) that the Government should carry on and ratify the controversial agreement, which would also create a new European president and foreign minister.

    (( No wonder Brown changed his mind on a Referedum - and tore up his manifesto commitment!! He Ratted alright!))


    The poll was commissioned by Open Europe, a eurosceptic think-tank.

    Neil O’Brien of Open Europe said: “Pressing ahead as if nothing has happened looks all wrong. Most of his own voters think that Gordon Brown should now drop the Lisbon Treaty and not try to ratify it.”

    The agreement must be ratified by all 27 European Union members before it can take force next year. A Daily Telegraph campaign seeking a UK referendum on the text last year gathered more than 115,000 signatories......

    Despite the Irish 'No’ vote, ministers are to try to push the treaty over its last parliamentary hurdle in a House of Lords vote. (( Parliament's Upper House))

    Labour whips are confident that the bill ratifying the treaty will be given final approval by the Lords after which, it would normally receive Royal Assent and become law.


    However, Bill Cash, the veteran Eurosceptic Tory backbencher, has made a legal attempt to stop the bill being given assent......
    At the High Court, Mr Cash made an emergency application for a judicial review of the Government’s actions, arguing that the Irish decision has killed the treaty and rendered any ratification redundant.

    ((---- which sounds far too logical for a court to accept!! ))

    He said: “The Treaty can not now be performed because the change of circumstances. Article 29 of the Irish constitution means the referendum result is binding on the Irish government whatever the others do. In those circumstances, the treaty itself must now be abandoned.”

    Leading EU members like France and Germany meanwhile, are pushing Ireland to reverse its position. There are growing signs that that could be done in a second referendum early next year......

    ((see!! such powers....)) .....

    ((Dick Roche, Ireland’s Europe Minister, has hinted that his country will seek new guarantees before a second vote, in a rerun of the crisis following an Irish No to the Nice Treaty in 2001.

    His comments come as leaked European Commission opinion polling found that “over 70 per cent” of Irish people who voted against the Lisbon Treaty did so because they thought a second, improved, text could be negotiated.

    The Brussels research will add to intense Franco-German pressure on Ireland to save the EU Treaty by holding a second vote.

    After Ireland rejected the Nice Treaty seven years ago, ratification continued and Dublin was given timeout to come up with additional guarantees before a second referendum secured a Yes vote.

    “After the first Nice referendum we carried out an analysis to find out what people are most allergic to,” said Mr Roche.

    “That is why we need again a period of reflection to carry out this analysis.” ))

    -----------------------------

    Euro-Speak : NO! - means " Have another try...!" -

  5. #35
    Senior Member BeornWulfWer's Avatar
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    Nothing else can be added which hasn't already been said by others, but I will add that the whole charade the EU gives off in it being a democratic body and a union for the future is pure lies.

    I don't trust them; I don't want them to succeed and I certainly hope the whole thing collapses on its arse.

    I would welcome a union of independent European countries all vying for a common interest in economic and social matters, but just not in this self-centred, bully like way.
    "The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent."

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  6. #36
    Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    We don't trust them --- but what's worse - they dont trust us , any of us really. Thats why we cant decide with a free vote. THEY decide for us - because ours is a "representative democracy" and we have elected them to stitch us up for good!

    As far as I can see . all of Britains parties except Labour want a VOTE on the Treaty....even the Liberals are unhappy because of the figures coming through. Labour doesn't dare to care!

    Alas. News from the Upper House of Parliament suggests that the party voting figures may favour the government.... and acceptance of the Treaty by Britain. We shall see........

    EU treaty likely to win House of Lords backing despite Irish vote
    Telegraph 18/06/2008


    The House of Lords is preparing to vote on the controversial European Union Treaty despite Ireland's rejection of it last week.
    The Government is confident that peers will vote to ratify the treaty despite intense Conservative opposition.

    Lord Howell, a former Conservative minister, this week tabled a motion urging the Lords to delay ratifying the treaty until October when it will become clear how the European Union will deal with the Irish rejection.......

    Lord Howell said: "As the amending chamber it is essential for the Lords to return this Bill to the elected House of Commons so that they can review the new situation." However, peers are expected to vote against the amendment.

    Ratification of the treaty is expected to go-ahead in the face of a poll finding widespread opposition to the move among the British public.

    According to a YouGov poll carried out after the Irish result was announced on Friday, 54 per cent of British voters now believe the Government should drop the Lisbon Treaty - which would sweep away dozens of national vetoes - and not try to ratify it.

    Only 14 per cent of those questioned agreed that the Government should carry on and ratify the controversial agreement, which would also create a new European president and foreign minister.

    The poll was commissioned by Open Europe, a eurosceptic think-tank.

    Neil O'Brien of Open Europe said: "Pressing ahead as if nothing has happened looks all wrong. Most of his own voters think that Gordon Brown should now drop the Lisbon Treaty and not try to ratify it."

    The agreement must be ratified by all 27 European Union members before it can take force next year. A Daily Telegraph campaign seeking a UK referendum on the text last year gathered more than 115,000 signatories.

    Bill Cash, the veteran Eurosceptic Tory backbencher, is also making a legal attempt to stop the bill being given assent.

  7. #37
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    The European union itself is the crisis
    :

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    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Looks like the plan is to centralize as much power in the central EU beaurocracy, and take away as much power from the individual nations. Then, the only parties which will get sizable amounts in the European Parliament will be generic/globalist ones, and thus no country in Europe will be able to develop a nationalist government, because too much power is in the EU, and any sizable nationalist delegation to the European Parliament from any particular country will be lost in the sea of the EU as a whole.
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    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

  9. #39
    Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    This is precisely it , SoV --- no one country can exercise controlling power - the more the merrier!! The was a protest yesterday over the Irish NO vote -- but its a minority issue to them!

    People will protest - but the general feeling is one of essential powerlessness in the face of this Juggernaut! A bit like those Chinese tanks......

    ************* Britain ratifies EU Treaty *********

    as expected the Lords votes to support the treaty!
    Telegraph .... 19/06/2008

    Britain has become the 19th European Union country to ratify the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum, after the EU Amendment Bill completed its passage through Parliament.

    Eurosceptic members of the European Parliament display posters calling on the EU to respect the outcome of Ireland's recent vote.!

    A last-ditch Conservative attempt to delay ratification until the autumn was voted down in the House of Lords by a margin of 93, and peers later gave the Bill its third reading without a vote.

    Royal Assent is expected to follow within 24 hours.

    Parliamentary ratification came on the eve of an EU summit in Brussels expected to be dominated by Ireland's rejection of the Treaty in last week's referendum.


    Irish Taoiseach Brian Cowen is expected to ask for more time to consider his country's response to the No vote (!), which threatens to prevent next year's planned implementation of the Treaty's reforms, including a full-time EU president and foreign minister.

    Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said that the Treaty cannot come into force unless it is ratified in all 27 EU states.

    On his way to the Brussels summit on Thursday, he will hold talks in Paris with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who will inherit the headache over how to deal with the Irish vote when he takes over the EU's six-month rotating presidency in July.

    ((The other half of the Sarky-Merkel lineup!!))

    At Prime Minister's Questions in the Commons on Wednesday, Mr Brown brushed off a demand from Conservative leader David Cameron to accept that Ireland's verdict has killed off the Treaty, which replaces the constitution rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005.

    "We respect the decision of the Irish. They have asked to have more time to discuss what their proposals will be to deal with this situation," Mr Brown told MPs.

    "They have not suggested either that they wish to postpone the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty for other countries or that they wish to stall the whole process."

    But Mr Cameron accused Mr Brown and other European leaders of trying to pressurise Dublin into a second referendum to reverse the result.

    "Which part of 'no' doesn't the Prime Minister understand?" the Tory leader demanded.

    "The Prime Minister says he doesn't want to bully Ireland, but doesn't he understand that continuing with the ratification process is doing precisely that?"

    As the row escalated, the Opposition leader told Mr Brown: "I've seen more spine and leadership from a bunch of jellyfish.
    "Why don't you give some leadership, tell us what you think and kill this Treaty today?"

    European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso today told the European Parliament that governments need time to regroup "but equally we should not take too long".

    He urged those countries that have not yet ratified the Treaty to do so.

    The Czech Republic suspended its own ratification process at least until the autumn, by sending the treaty to the Constitutional Court to determine whether it is in line with the country's constitution.

    Britain has made it clear that it will oppose any attempt to move to a "two-speed" Europe, where some members go ahead with the Treaty while others, such as Ireland, are left behind.......................


    Several pro-referendum protesters were thrown out of the Lords public gallery after voicing their demands for a poll during this afternoon's debate.

    Mr Barroso thanked the UK government for it's "constant support" for the new Treaty - and he urged all other European member states who have yet to approve the document to continue the process despite Ireland's no-vote.
    He issued a statement to mark approval by the 19th EU country to rectify the treaty.

    He said: "I would like to congratulate the UK on the approval of the Treaty of Lisbon today. I would like to thank the government and parliament for the constant support for the new Treaty during the negotiation and ratification process".
    He went on: "I believe the new Treaty will make the EU more effective, democratic and stronger on the global stage. The Treaty of Lisbon has now been approved by 19 member states...................
    "I believe it is important that all member states express their position on the Treaty, and I call on all of those that have not ratified the Treaty to continue the ratification process".

  10. #40
    Senior Member arthor's Avatar
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    EU? Blair for president?

    cyfarchion

    The issue of whether the EU dies before lasting damage is done is quite worrying. The grim spectre of a mindless monolith running roughshod and out of control and having power over people's lives is not a pretty vision. You almost get the impression that if all the leaders actually did what their people wanted and ignored Europe, it would be impossible to switch the whole thing off.
    At election time in this country people would either vote in the Tories -low tax, laissez faire etc or the socialists - high tax, petty jealousy, corruption etc. Even if the "wrong" team got in it was just a case of swapping things back when the other lot got in. That has now changed, our government has sold us out and we may never recover our dignity and status as an independent nation. (even my passport has changed colour).
    The idea of Blair as a Euro president appalls me. With the socialist scum already trying to undermine the position of Her Majesty day by day, they would regard it as a major coup if they signed sovereignty away to Brussels. This would mean that Blair would outrank the Queen. The thought of that makes me want to throw up.
    As I grow older, I have come to accept that the world is full of people that don't think the same as me and that things change. I have accepted that this country is under the threat of attack. I have served in the Gulf against that enemy but the real enemy is closer to home. Treason and selling out your country is a far bigger crime than anyone one from outside can commit.
    I honestly believe that it may come to the point where people take up arms due to frsutration with their own leaders.

    wasshael

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