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Thread: "The Azgen" or "The Moon Eyed People"

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    "The Azgen" or "The Moon Eyed People"

    I was originally not quite sure where I should post this thread due to the fact that the topic happens to cross many different sub-topics on this forum, but I chose to post here in the U.S. / Culture section because I do believe this to be a uniquely American mystery, and due to the lack of information available on this topic.....i feel as though only someone with intimate knowledge of the area and mythology of the hinterlands of America could provide any substantial light on this topic.


    There has long been a legend of an ancient race or tribe of Whites that existed and thrived long before the American Indians arrived in North America. The Indians refered to them as the "Moon Eyed People" because they were apparently nocturnal, and did most of their work under cover of darkness (perhaps some sort of Albinoism?), yet they clearly described them as fair haired, very tall, and intelligent, and with blue eyes. They also feared them, and maintained a healthy distance, and respect for the lands of The Azgen.

    The obscured past and fokelore of North America is littered with myths of ancient "white" giants inhabiting the lands, whether it be Giant Red Haired Mummies found in the Utah, and Calif desert in the 1880's, or even the pages of "The Book Of Mormon" which happens to describe a similar story, yet calls the race the Nephites. This could all be easily dismissed as fantasy and far-fetched myth if not for one major obstacle.......the evidence! The American mid-west is covered with pyramids, ceremonial mounds, European looking monoliths, and massive land sculptures representing sacred animals & symbols. As modern science and anthropology tries to attribute these structures to the American Indians and their ancestors, it is the American Indians themselves that bluntly state........"those structures were here when we arrived"

    So......this brings us to the myth of "The Azgens"....who were they? Some say Atlantians, and others say Ancient Europeans, and yet others say they were the followers of a renegade Welsh prince named Madoc who came to the New World 500 years before the Norse, and others claim that they were the "Lost Colony of Roanoke"

    Like i said....there is scant info about "The Azgens" available, and i have provided as many links as I could find, but i do feel that where there is smoke, there is also flame, and that some further digging into the legend of "The Azgens" could provide a new frontier into the pre-history of North America, and most certainly cause many to re-think the "white" man's role in the same said pre-history. Please, if you have any other pertainent information regarding this subject.....please post!


    http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/V...5743/azgen.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-12/1072640468

    http://www.ophymirage.net/ghosts/mou...eyedpeople.php

    http://www.tylwythteg.com/fortmount/Ftmount.html

    http://www.geocities.com/age_of_gian..._builders.html

    http://ancientamerican.com/issue76.htm

    http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giants2.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDawn View Post
    There has long been a legend of an ancient race or tribe of Whites that existed and thrived long before the American Indians arrived in North America. "The Book Of Mormon" which happens to describe a similar story, yet calls the race the Nephites.
    I will have to get the Book of Mormon out from the library again to see exactly what Smith's account of them is, I don't recall any physical descriptions of the Nephites however. Is there any?

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    I doubt there ever was a migration wave from Europe that antedated the Siberian one. Was there ever a isthmus between N-America and Europe? The Paleo-Indians reached the Americas circa 20.000-18.000 years ago when the contemporary sea vehicles(where there even any?) in Europe were just simply not good enough. It's more likely that the legendary "White Giants" were subsequently arrived Asiatic Caucasoids or people from the 10th century Viking settlements.

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    The possible Albinism explanation thing is maybe closer to some form of fact.

    But this is basically what is known as Nephilimism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

    One of the marks of Cain, was believed to be his red hair. Today in many nations including, Britain, red hair is looked down upon for various reasons.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6725653.stm

    In others, namely Semitic, its completely evil associated with the Egyptian god Set or Apep or its Greek equivalent, Typhon. Later via Christianity Set and Typhon were merged into one, and became one of the prototypes for Satan.

    Anyway, I believe this is more Paranormal I'd say, to flat out fiction. Its not taking into account, the possibility of the colonists implanting thoughts in the heads of drunk Indians to make their claims to the lands more authentic or using their mythology against them. Its best working with archeology and history as much as possible in such matters. The Atlantis connection is completely absurd.

    Besides, I think this is the same one with the stories of American Indians of some great battles they had against pre-existing archaic race of giant men that feasted on human flesh in caves. They had slant eyes, huge cheek bones, double or triple rows of teeth and red hair. Supposedly skeletons were unearthed in Ohio during some dig a century or two ago, and they were at least eight feet tall in height and they all had double rows of teeth, shortly after all evidence of them vanished, if at all they existed in the first place.. and it was not some elaborate hoax.

    http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ohiogiants.html

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    Recent discoveries indicate a migration from Europe during the last ice age, by moving along the southern edge of the ice shelf:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...columbus.shtml

    Who were the first people in North America? From where did they come? How did they arrive? The prehistory of the Americas has been widely studied. Over 70 years a consensus became so established that dissenters felt uneasy challenging it. Yet in 2001, genetics, anthropology and a few shards of flint combined to overturn the accepted facts and to push back one of the greatest technological changes that the Americas have ever seen by over five millennia.

    The accepted version of the first Americans starts with a flint spearhead unearthed at Clovis, New Mexico, in 1933. Dated by the mammoth skeleton it lay beside to 11,500 years ago (11.5kya), it was distinctive because it had two faces, where flakes had been knapped away from a core flint. The find sparked a wave of similar reports, all dating from around the same period. There seemed to be nothing human before Clovis. Whoever those incomers were around 9,500BC, they appeared to have had a clean start. And the Clovis point was their icon - across 48 states.

    An icon that was supremely effective: the introduction of the innovative spearpoint coincided with a mass extinction of the continent's megafauna. Not only the mammoth, but the giant armadillo, giant sloth and great black bear all disappeared soon after the Clovis point - and the hunters who used it - arrived on the scene.

    But from where? With temperatures much colder than today and substantial polar ice sheets, sea levels were much lower. Asia and America were connected by a land bridge where now there's the open water of the Bering Strait. The traditional view of American prehistory was that Clovis people travelled by land from Asia.

    This version was so accepted that few archaeologists even bothered to look for artefacts from periods before 10,000BC. But when Jim Adavasio continued to dig below the Clovis layer at his dig near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, he found blades and blade cores dating back to 16,000BC. His findings were dismissed as erroneous; too astonishing to be credible. The Clovis consensus had too many reputations behind it to evaporate easily. Some archaeologists who backed Adavasio's conclusions with other similar data were accused of making radiocarbon dating errors or even of planting finds.

    Decisive evidence would have to come from an independent arena. Douglas Wallace studies mitochondrial DNA, part of the human chromosomes that is passed unchanged from mother to daughter. It only varies when mistakes occur in the replication of the genetic code. Conveniently for Wallace's work (piecing together a global history of migration of native peoples) these mistakes crop up at a quite regular rate. The technique has allowed Wallace to map the geographical ancestry of all the Native American peoples back to Siberia and northeast Asia.

    The route of the Clovis hypothesis was right. The date, however, was wrong - out by up to 20,000 years. Wallace's migration history showed waves of incomers. The Clovis people were clearly not the first humans to set foot across North America.

    Dennis Stanford went back to first principles to investigate Clovis afresh, looking at tools from the period along the route Clovis was assumed to have taken from Siberia via the Bering Strait to Alaska. The large bifaced Clovis point was not in the archaeological record. Instead the tools used microblades, numerous small flint flakes lined up along the spear shaft to make its head.

    Wallace's DNA work suggested migration from Asia to America but the Clovis trail contradicted it. Bruce Bradley stepped in to help solve this dichotomy, bringing with him one particular skill: flintknapping and the ability to read flint tools for their most intimate secrets.

    He spotted the similarity in production method between the Clovis point and tools made by the Solutrean neolithic (Stone Age) culture in southwest France. At this stage his idea was pure hypothesis, but could the first Americans have been European?

    The Solutreans were a remarkably society, the most innovative and adaptive of the time. They were among the first to discover the value of heat treating flints to increase strength. Bradley was keen to discover if Solutrean flintknapping styles matched Clovis techniques. A trawl through the unattractive flint offcuts in the storerooms of a French museum convinced him of the similarities, even though five thousand kilometres lay between their territories.

    The divide was more than just distance; it crossed five thousand years as well. No matter the similarities between the two cultures, the possibility of a parallel technology developing by chance would have to be considered. More evidence emerged from an archaeological dig in Cactus Hill, Virginia. A bifaced flint point found there was dated to 16kya, far older than Clovis. Even more startling was its style. To flintknapper Bruce Bradley's eye, the Cactus Hill flint was a technological midpoint between the French Solutrean style and the Clovis points dating five millennia later. It seemed there is no great divide in time. The Solutrean flint methods evolved into Clovis.

    If time could be discounted, Bradley's critics pointed to an obstacle that was hardly going to go away: crossing the Atlantic Ocean in small open boats. How could Stone Age people have made such an epic journey, especially when the Ice Age maximum would have filled the Atlantic with icebergs.

    Dennis Stanford returned to his earlier hunch, looking for clues among the Arctic Eskimo peoples. Despite the influx of modern technologies, he was heartened to discover that traditional techniques endured. Clothing makers in Barrow, Alaska, recognised some Solutrean bone needles he showed them as typical of their own. The caribou skin clothing the Inuit still choose to wear could equally have been made by people in 16,000BC. And for Eskimo peoples the Arctic is not a desert - but a source of plentiful sea food. If the Solutreans had the Clovis point it would have made a formidable harpoon weapon to ensure a food supply. Would modern Eskimo ever consider a five thousand kilometre journey across the Atlantic?

    The answer it seems is yes - they have undertaken similar journeys many times.. Most encouraging was the realisation that Inuit people today rely on traditional boat building techniques. 'Unbreakable' plastic breaks in the unceasing cold temperatures whereas boats of wood, sealskin and whale oil are resilient and easily maintained. The same materials would have been available to Solutrean boat builders. Even if the Stone Age Europeans could make those boats, would it survive an Atlantic crossing?

    Stanford believes the boats' flimsiness is deceptive. With the Atlantic full of ice floes it would be quite possible for paddlers in open boats to travel along the edges, always having a safe place to haul out upon if the weather turned in.


    All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. Douglas Wallace's DNA history bore fruit once more. In the DNA profile of the Ichigua Native American tribe he identified a lineage that was clearly European in origin, too old to be due to genetic mixing since Columbus' discovery of the New World. Instead it dated to Solutrean times. Wallace's genetic timelines show the Ice Age prompted a number of migrations from Europe to America. It looks highly likely that the Solutreans were one.

    The impact of this new prehistory on Native Americans could be grave. They usually consider themselves to be Asian in origin; and to have been subjugated by Europeans after 1492. If they too were partly Europeans, the dividing lines would be instantly blurred. Dr Joallyn Archambault of the American Indian Programme of the Smithsonian Institute offers a positive interpretation, however. Venturing across huge bodies of water, she says, is a clear demonstration of the courage and creativity of the Native Americans' ancestors. Bruce Bradley agrees. He feels his Solutrean Ice Age theory takes into consideration the abilities of people to embrace new places, adding, "To ignore this possibility ignores the humanity of people 20,000 years ago."
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    The Clovis theory of migrants from Meso-Neolithic Southern Europe crossing over some hypothetical ice bridge or boating, has never been proven, whether genetically or archeologically. Red Hair by itself is simply genetic mutation caused by several generations of dark haired individuals, even Neanderthals carried the red hair mutation gene.

    The Pyramids of Mesoamerica only go back around a little more than 1,000 years ago and arent found above Mexico, dirt mounds are all over the globe and were used at one early point or another by various people, so arent special by themselves.

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    There are legends among the Piaute about "Red haired giants" with fair skin in the West. The legend says that the Piaute were at war with them for generations, the red haired giants began to decline to a point where they became "dog eaters" (a severe insult). The final battle with them came when they trapped them in a cave on the edge of the mountains, they set a huge fire that eventually killed what remained of the red haired giants. Most of this legend was considered "fanciful", to give greater status to the tribe....until they found the cave on the edge of the Sierra Nevadas in the 1920's. It's called Lovelock Cave in Nevada and the museum there as some of the most interesting pieces that I've seen. I haven't heard of the finds in Utah much at all, but the ones in Nevada I've read about for years. Kennewick Man was thought to have been a part of this group as well, until it was noticed that probably had Asiatic ancestry despite being a Caucasiod. Although being from Asia means very little, the Tocharian culture thrived in what is now Northwest China...and despite its total destruction, you can still see blonde hair and blue/green/gray eyes among the current population.

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    Yeah who knows. I would agree on a possible early contact, as I personally find the idea of Ancient Pre-Columbian contact between Europe and the Americas to be a fascinating subject & hobby of mine. But the idea of giants and possible space Aliens, I dont know about. I believe more in human talent in engineering and ingenuity, which I find more plausible for building megalithic, cyclopean and Pyramidal ect type structures among other things, but with the realm of reason.

    Here's a few more things I had laying around:

    The Mystery of the Cocaine Mummies: Discovery Channel transcript


    http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/mummies.htm


    Greeks and Romans in the New World

    *Coins:
    -Roman coins have been found in Venezuela and Maine.
    -Roman coins were found in Texas at the bottom of an Indian mound at -Round Rock. The mound is dated at approximately 800 AD.
    -In 1957 by a small boy found a coin in a field near Phenix City, Alabama, from Syracuse, on the island of Sicily, and dating from 490 B.C.
    -In the town of Heavener, Oklahoma, another out-of-place coin was found in 1976. Experts identified it as a bronze tetradrachm originally struck in Antioch, Syria in 63 A.D. and bearing the profile of the emperor Nero.
    -In 1882, a farmer in Cass County, Illinois picked up bronze coin later identified as a coin of Antiochus IV, one of the kings of Syria who reigned from 175 B.C. to 164 B.C., and who is mentioned in the Bible.
    *Pottery: Roman pottery was unearthed in Mexico that, according to its style, has been dated to the second century A.D.
    Inscriptions:
    -In 1966, a man named Manfred Metcalf stumbled upon a stone in the state of Georgia that bears an inscription that is very similar to ancient writing from the island of Crete called "Cretan Linear A and B writing."
    -In the early 1900s, Bernardo da Silva Ramos, a Brazilian rubber-tapper working in the Amazon jungle, found many large rocks on which was inscribed more than 2,000 ancient scripts about the "Old World."
    -Near Rio de Janeiro, high on a vertical wall of rock - 3,000 feet up - is an inscription that reads: 'Tyre, Phoenicia, Badezir, Firstborn of Jethbaal..." and dated to the middle of the ninth century B.C.
    -Near Parahyba, Brazil, an inscription on Phoenician has been translated, in part, as: "We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains. We set [sacrificed] a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram, our mighty king. We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years around the land belonging to Ham [Africa] but were separated by a storm [lit. 'from the hand of Baal'], and we were no longer with our companions. So we have come here, twelve men and three women, on a... shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the gods and goddesses favor us!"
    -The Kensington Stone, discovered in Kensington, Minnesota in 1898 contains an inscription describing an expedition of Norsemen into the interior of what is now North America. It's estimated that this expedition took place in the 1300s.
    -In 1980, P.M. Leonard and J.L. Glenn, from the Hogle Zoological Gardens, Salt Lake City, visited a rock outcropping in Colorado that was reputed to be inscribed with "peculiar markings." Leonard and Glenn believe they are excellent examples of Consainne Ogam writing - a type ascribed to ancient Celts. One of the many inscriptions was translated as: "Route Guide: To the west is the frontier town with standing stones as boundary markers."
    -A fist-sized, round stone was found during the early 1890s in an cemetery near Nashville, Tennessee. Its front was inscribed with symbols thought to be Libyan, pre-100 A.D. style. It translates as: "The colonists pledge to redeem."
    *Pictures: An experienced botanist has identified plants in an ancient fresco painting as a pineapple and a specific species of squash - both native to the Americas. Yet the fresco is in the Roman city of Pompeii.
    *Statues: In 1933, in a burial at Calixtlahuaca, Mexico, archaeologist Jos� Garc�a Pay�n discovered a small carved head with "foreign" features in an undisturbed burial site. It was later identified by anthropologist Robert Heine-Geldern as "unquestionably" from the Hellenistic-Roman school of art and suggested a date of "around AD 200."
    *Structures: Many stone chambers dot the New England countryside and most archaeologists insist they are all potato cellars built long ago by farmers. Others argue that they are too sophisticated for such a mundane application. One, is built into a hillside at Upton, Massachusetts, has sophisticated corbelling that follows they style of Irish and Iberic chambers. It's theorized that it was really built by Europeans around 700 AD - long before the Leif Eiriksson.
    *Ships: In 1886, the remains of a shipwreck was found in Galveston Bay, Texas. Its construction is typically Roman.
    *Toys: A doll made of wood and wax was found deep in a "Well of Sacrifice" at Chichn Itz, Mexico, on which is written Roman script.
    Tombs: In the Mayan ruins of Palenque, a stone sarcophagus was found that is very much in the style of the ancient Phoenicians.

    http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm


    ________________________________________ ___




    The Tocharians were a small isolated and mixed group of partial Indo-European or Indo-Iranian speakers. Besides; Iran, Turkmenistan, India & Afghanistan are so close to China. Genetically and Anthropologically they were of Eastern Europoid(Caucasoid) class, with varying degrees of Mongoloid admixtures. Moreover there is the Tajiks and uyghurs living in china today and have been there for a long time. China is home to many hundreds of various ethnicities btw.

    Have you seen this one?
    Roman descendants found in China?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-in-China.html


    Check it out Tarim Basin:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/Xinjiang



    Europoid people showing lighter features isnt outstanding on its own. Caucasoid or partial Caucasoid groups have a minority tendency towards fairness.

    Origin of Blue-Eyes during and after the Neolithic:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...scieyes130.xml






    Its extremely doubtful that 9,000-15,00 years ago Tocharians traveled that far East though and ended up in North America, not only is that a huge trek the time frames are WAY off. The Kennewich man is dated to 9,000 years ago. The controversy behind the Kennewick man which I find really interesting to me is, mainly because of the politics behind it. Same thing is done in China, they dont like non-Mongoloids or suggestion of foreigner Caucasoid types which is automatically linked to Europeans and Western Imperialism, same with the American Indians.



    Amerindians showing pseudo Dinariform/Armenoid and Cromagnoid faces was noted among many early Anthropologists, however none of it was proven true by genetics or archeology.

    Here's two rather recent links on the Kennewick Man:


    "Some Ainu’s facial features appear European. Their eyes may lack the Asian almond-shaped appearance, and their hair may be light and curly in color. However, this does not mean that Kennewick Man necessarily was European in origin. His features more closely resemble those of the natives of the Pacific Rim than those of Native Americans."

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0425183740.htm


    Or

    "But scientists filed suit, insisting the remains, dubbed Kennewick Man, could not be linked to any of the tribes. Tests showed the skeleton was 9,300 years old, and some scientists suggested that rather than resembling Native Americans, the skeleton was more like the prehistoric Jomon of Japan or Polynesians or Caucasians."

    http://www.tri-cityherald.com/1211/story/58541.html


    Polynesians also reached the Americas.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11987



    Ainu


    Polynesian


    Australoid

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    I don't view myths of red haired giants as being literal (though some strange ideas on the mother ship dropping down on us do bring a smile). I do think that they were thought of as such due to the *possiblity* of them being taller at one point (of course there could have also been a genetic abnormality in a few that caused this nickname to get passed into myth...perhaps similiar to David and Goliath?), though that was before their obvious decline when they were referred to as "dog eaters". I do have a problem when people refer to these people as European descended, partially as they lived long before any concept of Europa and that there were migrations of people throughout Eurasia...Caucasiod or even Indo-European doesn't mean "European" in those regards. And yes, I realize that Tocharians came into being long after these people had left...they were used only an example, in that I should have been much clearer.

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    I remember a couple years back watching a show on Discovery Channel called Ice Age Columbus. It was about the Ice Age Europeans discovering America prior to the Amerindians by drifting westwards from the current French shores on ice sheets when they were hunting seal.
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