Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Anti-Capitalist Free Market

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    DanseMacabre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 6th, 2008 @ 10:54 PM
    Ethnicity
    American
    Ancestry
    English and German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Kansas Kansas
    Gender
    Age
    37
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Idealist
    Politics
    Nationalism
    Religion
    Odinism
    Posts
    237
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    10
    Thanked in
    10 Posts

    Anti-Capitalist Free Market

    Mutualism is an anarchist school of thought largely associated with Pierre-Joseph Proudhon that envisioned a society where each person might possess a means of production either individually or collectively, with trade representing equivalent amounts of labor. Integral to the scheme was the establishment of a mutual credit bank which would lend to producers at a minimal interest rate only high enough cover the costs of administration.[1] Mutualism is based on a labor theory of value which holds that when labor or its product is sold, it ought to receive in exchange, goods or services embodying "the amount of labor necessary to produce an article of exactly similar and equal utility"[2] (receiving anything less is considered exploitation, theft of labor, or "usury"). Mutualists believe that a natural economic consequence of a truly free labor market is income to individuals being received proportionally to the amount of labor they exert.[3] Mutualists oppose the idea of individuals receiving an income through loans, investments, and rent, as they believe these individuals are not laboring. They hold that if state intervention ceased, these types of incomes would disappear.[4]

    Insofar as they ensure the workers right to the full product of their labor, mutualists support markets and private property in the product of labor. However, they argue for conditional titles to land, whose private ownership is legitimate only so long as it remains in use or occupation (which Proudhon called "possession.")[5] Proudhon's Mutualism reluctantly supports labor-owned cooperative firms and associations[6] "only in those cases where it is not possible for the public to rely on private industry," preferring a society of individual entrepreneurs.[7] As for capital goods (man-made, non-land, "means of production"), mutualist opinions differ on whether they are private "possession" (i.e. individuals required to be using them in order to retain titles) or private property.[citation needed]

    Some commentators distinguish between the nineteenth century American individualist anarchists and mutualists, suggesting that mutualists are more concerned with association.[8] Because of this, some see mutualism as being situated somewhere between individualism and collectivism.[9] Proudhon himself described the "liberty" which he pursued as "the synthesis of communism and property."[10]

    Mutualists, following Proudhon, originally considered themselves to be libertarian socialists. However, "some mutualists have abandoned the labor theory of value, and prefer to avoid the term "socialist." But they still retain some cultural attitudes, for the most part, that set them off from the libertarian right."[11] Mutualists have distinguished themselves from state socialism, and don't advocate social control over the means of production. Benjamin Tucker said of Proudhon, that "though opposed to socializing the ownership of capital, [Proudhon] aimed nevertheless to socialize its effects by making its use beneficial to all instead of a means of impoverishing the many to enrich the few...by subjecting capital to the natural law of competition, thus bringing the price of its own use down to cost."[
    Mutualism

    What do you think of mutualism?
    “Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs-Jon Jay, Federalist Papers

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Cuchulain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Last Online
    Wednesday, September 22nd, 2010 @ 11:38 PM
    Ethnicity
    Hiberno-Norman
    Subrace
    UP/Atlanto Med
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Illinois Illinois
    Gender
    Age
    38
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    B-School, Demolition
    Politics
    I do what I can
    Posts
    601
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    The value theory of labor is a flawed concept in my opinion.

    If it takes one man 1 day to produce x amount of product y, and it takes a second man 2 days to produce x amount of product y, the first man is more valuable to society but doesn't get rewarded as such, and the second man has no incentive to be more efficient.

    It also fails to take very real factors such as personal taste into account. A pair of Sears jeans are produced at pretty much the same cost in pretty much the same amount of time as a pair of Express jeans, but the Express jeans have a higher value to most individuals because they are cool. The value theory of labor doesn't account for personal tastes.

    Now imagine the market for a commodity in 2 different years. Lets say its wheat. We will hold demand constant for both years. In year 1 everything goes well and 99% of the wheat planted goes to market. In year 2 most of the wheat crop is destroyed by insects. According to the labor theory of value the value of wheat ought to be identical in both years, but thats simply not going to happen. In year 2 there will be less wheat available than there is a demand for, and in a free market, who gets the wheat will be determined by who is going to pay the most for it.

    The labor theory of value is a pleasant concept, but its has no applicability to the real world.

  3. #3
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Last Online
    Thursday, May 13th, 2010 @ 01:33 AM
    Ethnicity
    Extraterrestrial
    Ancestry
    Germany/Saxons
    Country
    Germany Germany
    State
    Lower Saxony Lower Saxony
    Gender
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,464
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Sounds nice but is impossible. It's impossible to evaluate different works and products and compare it to other works/products in our modern technology, automatic production and and service oriented society.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    SineNomine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Last Online
    Sunday, November 9th, 2008 @ 05:25 AM
    Ethnicity
    Germanic
    Subrace
    Mediterranid
    Country
    England England
    Location
    Nord du pays
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Family
    Single
    Occupation
    Student
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Religion
    MYOB
    Posts
    2,131
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Yeah, that's precisely the problem with it - that Cuchulain hit upon - that it's based on the labour theory of value; once that is done away with, its entire theoretical apparatus comes into question. One of the more modern mutualists, Kevin Carson, has gone to various lengths to resuscitate the theory, but it amounts to little more than the subjective/marginal theory of utility in different clothing, much like George Reisman's reformulations of value theory in more Randian terminology. Other than that I can sympathize with mutualism.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Berrocscir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last Online
    Friday, July 26th, 2019 @ 11:19 PM
    Ethnicity
    English
    Ancestry
    Oxon, Bucks and Ulster
    Country
    England England
    State
    Wessex Wessex
    Location
    North Wessex
    Gender
    Age
    50
    Politics
    Nationalism, Neoreactionary
    Religion
    God the father
    Posts
    677
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Seems similar to Distributism. It can only have a real chance if implemented in small communities.

Similar Threads

  1. Free Market Capitalism Incompatible With Nationalism
    By Caledonian in forum Philosophy
    Replies: 592
    Last Post: Sunday, January 19th, 2020, 06:30 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: Sunday, April 18th, 2010, 03:48 AM
  3. So Much for the 'Free' Market. Now What?
    By Hanna in forum Economics, Business, & Finance
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Friday, November 14th, 2008, 04:02 AM
  4. Free Market Economy Question & Answers
    By Ahnenerbe in forum Economics, Business, & Finance
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Friday, February 3rd, 2006, 12:00 AM
  5. Replies: 33
    Last Post: Tuesday, November 11th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •