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Thread: Just How Germanic is Britain/England?

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    Post Britain is not GERMANIC

    Britain is not Germanic.

    Not in the genes, not in culture!

    we in the western countries, have just a modification of the Roman organization system. even germany, don't have anything close related with the true germanic way of living.

    Rex Publica (king of the people), this is a roman name to something we call today democracy. the chinese republic is not a republic...

    ok returning to the british.
    welsh means foreigner in the anglo-saxon language, the king arthur most likely was a roman soldier, most of today west england (cornish welsh and even scotland) have low quantities of that anglo-saxon genes, in the east, there is pre-roman genes and anglo-saxon genes in the same quantity.

    So in reality saying that britain is germanic, is a total NONSENSE!

    their's root are still with the first habitants, that share close relations with the iberians and southern france people.
    the genes speaks the truth!

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    the end of the anglo-saxon era, was with the normands.

    they were britains (refugees from britain), mixed with some (very little) scandinavian, and local france people.
    the leaders were most likely from scandinavia, but the kernel (german word) was from the the same old british stock.

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    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Much of Britain is not Germanic; some of it still is. My sympathies are with you to some extent because of the Nordishists who masturbate to a 100% Teutonic, Nordish Britain fantasy, but I would state these claims in a much more moderate, factual way.

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    Account Inactive Odin Biggles's Avatar
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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Theirs a good mixture of racial types in Britain but thats true of anywhere if you look top to bottom.

    I actually live in the South-East and i can tell you the Germanic look is quite common, of course i cant account for all of the country.

    I sometimes think Britain gets exaggerated in how Germanic it is but the racial types exist here none the less.

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    Sideways to the Sun Milesian's Avatar
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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin Biggles
    Theirs a good mixture of racial types in Britain but thats true of anywhere if you look top to bottom.

    I actually live in the South-East and i can tell you the Germanic look is quite common, of course i cant account for all of the country.
    Yes, indeed. When I travel to England there is a change in the phenotype. Germanic-looking and continental phenotypes are much more common there and it is noticable.

    I sometimes think Britain gets exaggerated in how Germanic it is but the racial types exist here none the less.
    It is certainly culturally Germanic. Of course it has a mix of pre Anglo-Saxon peoples with later Angle, Saxon, Jute, Norman, etc population. It is not entirely Germanic but it is still germanic for all intents and purposes.
    The "Blood of the Vikings" genetic survey proved the heterogenous genetic make-up, it's genetic input from Scandinavia, etc. and also it's distinctiveness in relation to other nations in the British Isles.
    Last edited by Milesian; Thursday, December 9th, 2004 at 11:41 AM.

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Much of England is Nordid though, according to statistics of anthropometry and the observations made by anthropologists.

    Stríbog, have you ever visited England?

    Nordish Britain fantasy?

    England is more Nordid than Germany. I don't claim that England is completely Germanic, but Baker (1974) suggested that the non-Germanic element was also partially Nordid. SE England is very densely populated and it's genetically close to the continent, whether Celtae and Belgae or Germanic. Yorkshire is also full of Nordids and even parts of NW England is largely Nordid, sometimes more pronounced than Sweden. The only parts that have other elements that are significant are parts of western Midlands (Mediterranid), Cornwall (some Litoroid) and northwesternmost (small population) England.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stríbog
    Much of Britain is not Germanic; some of it still is. My sympathies are with you to some extent because of the Nordishists who masturbate to a 100% Teutonic, Nordish Britain fantasy, but I would state these claims in a much more moderate, factual way.
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Thursday, December 9th, 2004 at 10:38 AM.

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    I don't know of anyone who would claim that all of Britain is Germanic. Britain afterall, encapsulates Wales, Scotland, Cornwall and England. There is however, a Germanic element on the island--with its stronghold in England itself.

    The linguistic, cultural, archaeological, genotypic and phenotypic records pretty much all point to a partial Germanic strata in Britain and partially otherwise (indigenous, Celtic, Bell-Beaker, etc.).

    Are you claiming that there is no Germanic element in any of the aforementioned categories in Britain?

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson
    I don't know of anyone who would claim that all of Britain is Germanic. Britain afterall, encapsulates Wales, Scotland, Cornwall and England. There is however, a Germanic element on the island--with its stronghold in England itself.

    The linguistic, cultural, archaeological, genotypic and phenotypic records pretty much all point to a partial Germanic strata in Britain and partially otherwise (indigenous, Celtic, Bell-Beaker, etc.).

    Are you claiming that there is no Germanic element in any of the aforementioned categories in Britain?
    I am claiming that even in england the most common is the indigenous element, only in the east the german is more pronounced.
    I also believe that scandinavian influence is a lot bigger, than that of the germanic influence, but even if someone encapsulate german with scandinavians (this 2 people are not the same), the indigenous will again be in more numbers even in england.

    The only place that is somewhat german is eastern england.

    In the language department, well I can speak english, and I am unable to understand dutch or deutch, my primary language is the portuguese, with that I am able to understand more than 50% of all latin languages (taking out the romanian language), there are significant differences.
    And there are a lot of words that are latin words...a lot!

    What Baker said is totaly being refuted by present day genetics, I am not saying that there are no german genes in england, I am saying that most england is a mix, and there are parts of england that are truly pure indigenous.

    those guys in the 70's still believed in no division between the mediterranean, being this large homogeneous place...
    this is wrong!
    totally wrong!
    calling mediterranean only based in the pigmentation, and strong biased.

    There was and still is a strong atlantic element even in all the northern europe. If that is what you call mediterranoid, then ok...take some saxons mix with those "atlantians" (more of the later) and you will get the common british.

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Scandinavians are Germanic, but not German.

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    Post Re: Britain is not GERMANIC

    Quote Originally Posted by Volksdeutscher
    England is more Nordid than Germany
    OK I've written a long reply...I think a lot of people derive their knowledge from the internet and base their ideas on what a few British Nordicists with internet sites would have them believe. There seems to be a general tendency dating back to the days of Stoddard and Madison Grant to claim that England is a Nordic nation and that Germany is not, so i think this is worth investigating.

    First of all, I think the contention that England is more Nordid than Germany is a matter of definition. England is certainly much more Atlantid and Mediterranean than is Germany, as basically all Iberians (such as Vitor on this thread) and British (such as Rhydderch) will point out to you. If you take the term Nordid to apply to indigenous northern European types, regardless of what their true racial affinities are (i.e. if you are a fan of the Nordish concept which lumps Nordics together with the racially very distinct northern Meditarranids, Littoroids, etc) then of course you end up with Britain being 100% Nordish = Nordid.

    However,
    • if you are thinking of racially Nordic blond/blue-eyed types (true Germanics)
    • or if you define Nordid based on Nordic types specific to Scandinavia (which is debatable since you could just as well define Nordid based on Nordic types specific to Germany) and are referring to racial affinities between Nordics defined in this way and other populations (i.e., Germany and England)
    then science proves you wrong.

    Of course there are unsubstantiated pronouncements, such as that by the SNPA Race Gallery
    http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/rg-main.htm
    which defines Nordics as
    “Descendants of the Danubian culture-bearers of the Neolithic; Nordics brought agriculture and the Indo-European language to northwestern Europe ca. 3,500 B.C”
    (an empty claim with no proof) and which claims that there are two types of Nordics who fit this definition: Hallstatt and Keltic Nordic (again without adducing any kind of proof as far as I can tell). This would indicate that the British (partly Keltic Nordic) and Scandinavians (partly Hallstatt, a type not as common percentage wise in Germany as in Scandinavia though by no means absent) may be more closely related to each other than Scandinavians are to Germans (often Faelid); a belief you seem to have made your own. Of course, as science advances and new facts are established, hypotheses and theories which are in contradiction to these newly ascertained facts (and which may have been invented to stroke bruised egos) end up in the trash bin, as they should.


    I will briefly review two recent studies which investigate racial realities in Northern Europe. These provide insight into the degree to which Germany and England share a common genetic heritage with Scandinavia.


    Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms


    Giuseppe Passarino*,1,2, Gianpiero L Cavalleri2, Alice A Lin2, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza2, Anne-Lise Børresen-Dale3 and Peter A Underhill2 1Dipartimento di Biologia Cellulare, Universita` della Calabria, Ponte Pietro Bucci c/da Arcavacata, 87030 Rende, Italy; 2Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, California, CA 94305-5120, USA; 3Department of Genetics, Institute for Cancer Research, University Clinic, The Norwegian Radium Hospital,

    Montebello N0310, Oslo, Norway

    European Journal of Human Genetics (2002) 10, 521 – 529 2002 Nature Publishing Group All rights reserved 1018 – 4813/02 $25.00


    The genetic composition of the Norwegian population was investigated by analysing polymorphisms associated with both the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome loci in a sample of 74 Norwegian males. The combination of their uniparental mode of inheritance and the absence of recombination make these haplotypic stretches of DNA the tools of choice in evaluating the different components of a population’s gene pool. The sequencing of the Dloop and two diagnostic RFLPs (AluI 7025 and HinfI at 12 308) allowed us to classify the mtDNA molecules in 10 previously described groups. As for the Y chromosome the combination of binary markers and microsatellites allowed us to compare our results to those obtained elsewhere in Europe. Both mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms showed a noticeable genetic affinity between Norwegians and central Europeans, especially Germans. When the phylogeographic analysis of the Y chromosome haplotypes was attempted some interesting clues on the peopling of Norway emerged. Although Y chromosome binary and microsatellite data indicate that 80% of the haplotypes are closely related to Central and western Europeans, the remainder share a unique binary marker (M17) common in eastern Europeans with informative microsatellite haplotypes suggesting a different demographic history. Other minor genetic influences on the Norwegian population from Uralic speakers and Mediterranean populations were also highlighted.
    European Journal of Human Genetics (2002) 10, 521 – 529. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200834

    Either because of late glacial or of more recent migrations the Norway Y chromosome gene pool appears to be very close to present day Germans. In fact the Fst and the Fst data indicate Germans and a few other Central European populations as being the closest to the Norwegians. When we compare our results with those based on different polymorphic systems,9,17 we can infer that these conclusions are also valid for Swedish, while Finns and Saami had a quite different genetic history with a great impact of Uralic Finno-Ugric speaking population.

    The mtDNA polymorphisms had previously shown the genetic closeness of Norwegians with Germans, based onthe statistic r.8 Our data are consistent with this finding and support the Y chromosome representation of a strong genetic influence from central European groups,

    In conclusion mtDNA and Y chromosome analyses show a strong similarity between Norwegians and central European populations.

    Another study finds it impossible to distinguish between Germans and Danes in terms of y-chromosomes. Both groups are also similar to Norwegians. However, all three Germanic groups show significant differences from the British, although a few Germanic pockets on the British Isles can be identified.
    A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles
    Cristian Capelli,1,8 Nicola Redhead,1 Julia K. Abernethy,1 Fiona Gratrix,1 James F. Wilson,1 Torolf Moen,3 Tor Hervig,4 Martin Richards,5 Michael P.H. Stumpf,1,9 Peter A. Underhill,6 Paul Bradshaw,7 Alom Shaha,7 Mark G. Thomas,1,2 Neal Bradman,1,2 and David B. Goldstein1 1Department of Biology
    Current Biology, Vol. 13, 979–984, May 27, 2003, .2003 Elsevier Science Ltd. All rights reserved. DOI 10.1016/S0960-9822(03)00373-7

    To represent the indigenous population of the British Isles, we have selected a site in central Ireland that has had no known history of contact with Anglo-Saxon or Viking invaders (Castlerea, see Figure 1). Given the demonstrated similarity of Celtic and Basque Y chromosomes [4, 5] (p _ 0.6, using haplogroups), these sample sets were combined [8, 9] to provide a representation of the Y chromosomes of the indigenous population of the British Isles. Norwegian invaders were represented by two sites in western Norway (Bergen and Trondheim), Danes were represented by a general Danish collection, and Anglo-Saxons were represented by samples from their historical homeland in Schleswig-Holstein (North Germany). Linguistic and historical investigations seem to suggest that internal migrations were minor and have not unduly blurred the genetic landscape of North Germany and Denmark in the last 1500 years [10]. We also note that some historians view the Anglo-Saxons themselves as Germanic invaders from what is now North Germany/Denmark. Population differentiation between the continental and indigenous British Isles groups was assessed by using an analog of Fisher’s exact test calculated by using haplogroup (hg) frequencies, as implemented by the Arlequin software package [11]. There was no significant difference between the Trondheim and Bergen samples or between the Danish and North German samples (p _ 0.8), while the Norwegians were different from the other northern European samples (p_0.05). We therefore clustered these source populations into two continental groups, referred to from now on as the Norway and German/Danish sample sets. Note that the similarity of the Danish and North German Y chromosomes means that, at the hg resolution, we cannot distinguish the genetic contributions to the British Isles of the two component groups. All continental populations, however, show significant differences from the indigenous group (p_0.01), and Norway can be distinguished, though to a lesser degree, from the German/Danish sample (p_0.05). Sampling in the British Isles was mainly undertaken to conform to a systematic 3 _ 5 grid (Figure 1).

    So of all European countries, Germans in general are the population group closest to Norwegians and Swedes (Passarino et al. 2002), and Schleswig-Holstein Germans in particular are so close to Danes as to be indistinguishable in terms of y chromosomes (Passarino et al 2003). However, all these continental populations show significant differences from the British (Passarino et al 2003). Passarino et al (2003) list the main areas of Germanic impact as Orkney and Shetland (Norwegian; however, the Scottish mainland shows no such influence and despite their well-known activities in the Irish Sea, Norwegian input in adjacent areas is modest.) The greatest Danish impact is seen in York and Norfolk. Southern England and mainland Scotland are predominantly indigenous, and the Anglo-Saxon demographic impact in southern England is insignificant.
    With regard to source populations, we note that Weale et al. [7] recently used Friesland as an Anglo-Saxon representative source population and suggested a substantial replacement of pre-Anglo-Saxon paternal lineages in central England. We therefore compared Frisians to our North German/Danish sample and found that the two sets are not significantly different from each other (p =0.3).

    These results demonstrate that even with the choice of Frisians as a source for the Anglo-Saxons, there is a clear indication of a continuing indigenous component in the English paternal genetic makeup. We also note that our analysis includes representatives of the Danish Vikings, which were not available in the Weale et al. study. Consideration of Danish Viking input is important because their activities on the British eastern coast are well documented

    This is the indigenous population being referred to:
    To represent the indigenous population of the British Isles, we have selected a site in central Ireland that has had no known history of contact with Anglo-Saxon or Viking invaders (Castlerea, see Figure 1). Given the demonstrated similarity of Celtic and Basque Y chromosomes [4, 5] (p _ 0.6, using haplogroups), these sample sets were combined [8, 9] to provide a representation of the Y chromosomes of the indigenous population of the British Isles.

    Therefore, the British are more closely related to Celts and Basques than they are to Germanics. They are also more closely related to Sardinians...
    Iberian, French, and Central-Northern Italian populations have been shown to have similar Y chromosome compositions, presumably reflecting their common heritage in the European Palaeolithic [14]; Wilson et al. [4] noted that AMH_1 haplotypes at high frequency are associated with the European Palaeolithic. Here, we note that another haplogroup (I1b2) is found almost exclusively in British populations that have experienced little or no continental genetic input (Tables 1 and S1). Intriguingly, earlier studies have shown that it is present in the Iberian Peninsula at low frequencies (0%–5.4%) and in Sardinia at a significant percentage (35.1%) [9,14]. This group might be another constituent of the European Palaeolithic.

    So these studies show that
    • Of all European populations outside Scandinavia, Germans are the population group most closely related to Norwegians
    • Schleswig-Holstein Germans are indistinguishable from Danes or vice versa
    • The British are closely related to Basques, Celts and Sardinians
    • There are a few areas of Britain which can be considered Nordic; these are insignificant in terms of overall population/geographic extent
    The fact is that Northern Germans, together with Danes, Norwegians and Swedes, comprise the Nordic core population. The British are just outliers.


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