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Thread: Celts and Germanics, Not So Related After All...

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    Celts and Germanics, Not So Related After All...

    An interesting article I found posted on another forum:

    Our Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugal

    THE Welsh have more in common with sun-kissed glamour pusses like actress Penelope Cruz and footballer Christiano Ronaldo than pale- faced Germans like Helmet Kohl, according to an academic.

    Professor John Koch suggests the Welsh can trace their ancestry back to Portugal and Spain, debunking the century-old received wisdom that our forebears came from Iron Age Germany and Austria.

    His radical work on Celtic origins flatly contradicts the writing of Sir John Rhys, who in the late 19th century established the idea that we originally came from central Europe.

    Sir John believed the Celts were the remnants of a great culture that extended here from modern-day eastern France, Switzerland, southern Germany and Austria.

    But Professor Koch, of the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh & Celtic Studies, in Aberystwyth, says archaeological inscriptions on stones show we came from southern Portugal and south-west Spain.

    He said: “Celts are said to come from west central Europe – Austria, southern Germany, eastern France and that part of the world.

    “That’s been the theory that everybody has grown up with for at least 100 years.

    “There is evidence that the Celtic languages were spoken there because of place names and people’s names.

    “But the assumption was that was where they came from. I think they got there later.

    “There is evidence in Spain and Portugal indicating they were there 500 or more years before.”

    Professor Koch says there are Celtic texts in Portugal and Spain way before they started springing up in central Europe during Roman times.

    One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.

    Expert on Welsh history and archaeology Dr Raimund Karl, says there is also biological and genetic evidence to support professor Koch’s theory.

    He said: “In the last couple of years there have been a number of genetic studies of human DNA indicating that the population of much of the western part of the British Isles is related to other communities along the Atlantic seafront. These include Brittany, northern Spain, Portugal and the French Atlantic coast. That’s their genetic origin.”

    But Dr Karl, of the University of Wales, Bangor, said there is also archaeological evidence suggesting a cultural link with central Europe.

    “There is evidence suggesting a link with central Europe from elite-material culture – stuff associated with the upper parts of society. This includes weaponry, feasting equipment, artwork on jewellery and other prestigious items.”

    However the academic said attempts to identify a biological Celt or notions of cultures emanating from a particular spot are meaningless. He believes human cultures and populations are constantly in a state of flux, drawing their influences from far and wide.

    Dr Karl, himself an Austrian, added: “I personally think the question of where Celtic culture originated is by and large meaningless. Culture is constantly changing and never has a single point of origin.

    “The biological Celt is meaningless because human populations inter-mingle.”

    Source article

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    I think there is some truth to this, but I think it is also partially B.S. The terms "Celtic" and "Germanic" are linguistic and cultural. Celtic and Germanic people shared, and still share, a common origin for their languages and cultures. As far as DNA goes, the Celts and Germans cluster pretty closely together when autosomal DNA is taken into account. Sub-racially the two groups are mostly Nordid/Cromagnid.

    I agree that there is a genetic link between the British Isles and Iberia/South-Western France, but it is a very old one at that which goes back about 30,000 years to the first Europeans... The same genetic link can also be found in modern Germanic countries as well. I think it is a very weak argument to say that the two groups are not related considering how similar the groups are in other ways (similar linguistic origins, mythology, cultural practices/rituals, and sub-races).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diarmuid View Post
    I agree that there is a genetic link between the British Isles and Iberia/South-Western France, but it is a very old one at that which goes back about 30,000 years to the first Europeans... The same genetic link can also be found in modern Germanic countries as well. I think it is a very weak argument to say that the two groups are not related considering how similar the groups are in other ways (similar linguistic origins, mythology, cultural practices/rituals, and sub-races).
    I've read that the original Celts came from Iberia and went up to Brittania and that the original Germans came from the area surrounding the river Don in Russia and went West towards Germania. I don't remember where I read it and I don't know if it's a good source, but it's the only thing I've read about Celtic and German origins.

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    One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.
    So much for the illiteracy of the Celtic race.
    “Why is there Being at all, and not much rather Nothing? That is the question.”Martin Heidegger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn-Rurik View Post
    So much for the illiteracy of the Celtic race.
    Only fools would ever insist on Celtic illiteracy. The Tartessan tablets are beyond the Celtiberian region, and it is HIGHLY unlikely that they are Celtophone. Extremely unlikely. Bet you a tenner.

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    If that is what they claim, then they fail to take into account that Celts were in pretty much every part of Europe at some point, stretching from the Iberian peninsula to the Carpathians, and from Holland to the Rubicon. Iberia was one outpost of the Celts, but let us not forget the fact that they had a heavy presence in the Alps, too: Northern Italy was once called Cisalpine Gaul, Hallstatt in Eastern Austria in fact names one of the two Iron Ages as a Celtic people, and there is ample archeological evidence of the Celts in Austria and Switzerland. And I should think that it's a safe wager to suggest that those Celts were genetically not exactly far from continental Germanics at all. To believe that the British Isles are the only places where Celtic influence abunds, is a misinformed folly.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Yes Sigurd, the Celts were all over. There are different groups of Celts like the Celtiberians, the Gauls, and the Cimmerians, just are there are different groups of Germanics like the Scandinavians and the mainland Germanics. The Celts and the Germans are much too similar to be completely unrelated.

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    I never liked Celts anyway. I always thought it was strange that people on this forum have said that Celts and Germanics are pretty much the same (very similar), because I have seen many Celts, some who just claim they are but may not be, who look nothing like a Germanic.
    Perfection.

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    I think it is generally accepted by anthropologists that the Welsh are Iberian in origin as are all the peoples of pre-Indo European speaking Western Europe. The so-called Old Europeans. The Welsh are obviously of Mediterranean origin. The only debatable issue would be what is the genetic relationship between the various Celtic speaking peoples and how did such morphologically disparate populations come to acquire Celtic speech. There is a thread which is engaged in this very debate here....



    .Scear

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
    I never liked Celts anyway. I always thought it was strange that people on this forum have said that Celts and Germanics are pretty much the same (very similar), because I have seen many Celts, some who just claim they are but may not be, who look nothing like a Germanic.
    Please remember that we call the people of Ireland and Scotland Celtic despite the fact most of the Irish in Western Hibernia probably owe more of their genes to Germanic colonists who came from the continent in the first millenium AD than to any pre-Germanic populations; as the people of eastern Scotland are very much of Norse extraction.

    The American Negro speaks English (to some degree), and lives in a society based on a foundation of Anglo-Saxon civlisation; but the American Negro is neither Angle nor Saxon.

    .Scear

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