View Poll Results: Did the National Socialists abuse the symbols of our Germanic ancestors?

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  • I believe so.

    15 32.61%
  • I don't believe so.

    30 65.22%
  • I am undecided.

    1 2.17%
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Thread: Did the National Socialists Misuse the Symbols of Our Germanic Ancestors?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Guntwachar's Avatar
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    That picture from Rotterdam as well the things that are done to my grandma and other familly members, are a few reasons why i could never like nationalsocialism.

    But this thread wasnt going about that:p

    I think almost everyone here agrees that the image of the Swastika and Odal runes seen as hate symbols are caused by every side in the war before the war and after the war.
    Nazi's did terrible things my grandma also saw how all her neighbours got killed in front of her, but this shouldnt be linked to the symbols of our ancestors.

    So the Nazi's used the symbols and in that way other countries saw it as there logo's, like the Communist logo thingy but they took it a bit to far and without noticing it was used way before that war and NSDAP.
    If christ is the answer then what is the question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drim View Post
    That picture from Rotterdam as well the things that are done to my grandma and other familly members, are a few reasons why i could never like nationalsocialism.

    But this thread wasnt going about that:p

    I think almost everyone here agrees that the image of the Swastika and Odal runes seen as hate symbols are caused by every side in the war before the war and after the war.
    Nazi's did terrible things my grandma also saw how all her neighbours got killed in front of her, but this shouldnt be linked to the symbols of our ancestors.

    So the Nazi's used the symbols and in that way other countries saw it as there logo's, like the Communist logo thingy but they took it a bit to far and without noticing it was used way before that war and NSDAP.
    When a government that conducts mass murder adopts the symbols of Germanic ancestors, when they use it as logos for the SS which coordinated murder, then I believe they abuse these symbols. Both sides are responsible. The Allies are responsible for painting them as hate symbols because they are not. I believe they should not judge a symbol after the National Socialists, because the symbol is older and has a different meaning.


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Brynhild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortis_in_Arduis View Post
    No, they are not copyrighted, so anyone can use them, and it would be parsimonious and frankly ridiculous to suggest that someone can 'abuse' a symbol.
    Would you be brave enough to brand the Swastika in your home or abode, knowing full well the intent in which it was used? Never mind what it was used for before WWII, what it means in people's minds now.

    I am fully aware of what the symbol originally entailed, but I wouldn't use it. I refuse to be pulled into a situation that brands me amongst those who did abuse its use, mainly due to ignorance.

    Unfortunately, mass energy that goes into any substance has a ripple effect on how people think and act, once the damage has been done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    Kevin MacDonald cites European Cultural Origins: Social structure: Individualistic; Republican; Democratic; Ethnocentrism: Relatively Low; Xenophobia: Relatively Low; Socialization: Stresses Independence,
    Self-Reliance;

    Jewish Cultural Origins: Social structure: Collectivistic; Authoritarian; Charismatic Leaders; Ethnocentrism: Relatively High; “Hyper-
    ethnocentrism; Xenophobia: Relatively High; “Hyper-
    xenophobia; Socialization: Stresses Ingroup Identification, Obligations
    to Kinship Group;

    National Socialism is not individualistic, not democratic, highly ethnocentrist and xenophobic, stresses obligations to the group before rights. The conclusion is obvious.

    I have already said that those source "Runes Around the North Sea And One the Continent A.D. 150-700, Jantina Helena Looijenge," was used about the original Germanic values, not about National Socialism and Judaism. You refuse to read what I say in its context. If you continue to take what I say out of context I will not respond to it anymore.

    Dr. Solar Wolff, historians with academnic qualifications have written about the crimes of the National Socialists. Photographic evidence speaks about the Holocaust. Is this the morality you are defending?



    A member of Einsatzgruppe D is just about to shoot a Jewish man kneeling before a filled mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine in 1942. The back of the photograph is inscribed, "The last Jew in Vinnitsa"



    Execution of Poles by Einsatzkommando - Leszno, October 1939



    The Kragujevac massacre



    German policemen tormenting a Jew in Rzeszów, Poland.

    The National Socialist crimes were directed at Germanics too:



    Rotterdam's city center after the bombing. The heavily damaged (now restored) Laurenskerk stands out as the only remaining building reminiscent of Rotterdam's medieval architecture.

    "The Nazis were the most moral government in human history." - Dr. Solar Wolff.
    This is not even a proper citing of Kevin MacDonald. What is this, a table of contents. Is this the best evidence that can be provided by the Dagna political ideology? Please provide a high school level quote from MacDonald about the origins of National Socialism being found in Judaism.

    No, the citation of Runes Around the North Sea... was part of a long list of citations made and presented as proof of the Dagna political ideological position that National Socialism has it origins in Judaism. Now it is apparently being re-spun. Please retract it and any other reference you cited with is not on point. I will await next post and anticipated correction before asking for a citation in one of the others on the list provided.

    As for providing a reference list of Germanic values, please cite a sentence or paragraph verifying the claim and contention made by the Dagna political ideology that National Socialism is not part of these values.

    Otherwise, why are examples of Germanic values being offered. It is believed by the Dagna political ideological representatives that lessons are needed for Althing members? Or is this just another trivial, misleading response of the kind admitted to by the Dagna political representative earlier?

    "If you continue to take what I say out of context I will not respond anymore". Nothing has been taken out of context. It is all here in this thread. The Dagna political ideological representative has not properly addressed or responded to any question posed so far so this statement is hardly a threat. Whether it is ignored or not, those questions are going to be asked every day so long as I and the representative of the Dagna political ideology are here at the Althing.

    But while we are at it, the Dagna political ideological representative made a statement about that ideologies superior moral authority which I quote in my Signature. Please state th e grounds for this assumption.

    Picture posting questions:

    1. What is the proof any of these individuals are Jewish?
    2. What is the number of Jewish victims being claimed in this post. If proof can be provided that they are Jewish, please subtract the number in question from 500 and continue with the proof.

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    In reviewing the "moral" component of the Dagna political ideology, an inconsistency has arisen which warrants clarification. In a post originated by a representative of the Dagna political ideology, a reference was made concerning the correct position the Nazis took towards "Honor". This is a copy of the first page, first post of that thread posted by a Dagna political ideological representative.

    Loyalty
    "One of the sayings the National Socialists did get right was "My honor is my loyalty". Do you believe this? I believe loyalty to Germanic kin and Germanic family is one of the most important things. Who/what are you loyal to?"
    _______________________

    In this post, once again National Socialist ideals are being mocked. The proof of this is in that same ideological representatives post of 11/21/07 in which the word of that representative has not been honored. The Dagna ideological representative made this statement in a self-originated thread titled "Farewell":

    The time has come for me to say farewell to this forum for good. It has been wonderful when I joined but it has changed a lot during the last weeks. I believe it is due to the arrival of certain members that I will not name. I don't think anyone will miss me but since everyone is making a farewell thread I thought it would be corteous if I did so too.
    ----------------------------

    The Dagna ideological representative has linked the concept of "honor" with National Socialism and then in an attempted affront has broken that pledge. Is breaking one's word honorable in the superior moral position claimed by the Dagna political ideological system? The fact that this breaching of honor should be shrugged off as a NS value and violated so effortlessly is an insult. If a Dagna ideological representative would be so kind, please clarify this.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    When a government that conducts mass murder adopts the symbols of Germanic ancestors, when they use it as logos for the SS which coordinated murder, then I believe they abuse these symbols. Both sides are responsible. The Allies are responsible for painting them as hate symbols because they are not. I believe they should not judge a symbol after the National Socialists, because the symbol is older and has a different meaning.
    Whatever was involved here was done during a war. In wars, unfortunately, innocent people are always killed and by both sides. The symbols used are irrelevant. Right now the Stars and Stripes, apple pie, motherhood and the American way are being used to justify an oppression against people whose only "crime" is a dislike for Israel. Israel itself is conducting criminal war behavior. Should American symbols be taken away? Should the Star of David be taken away from Israel?

    No. Because they are symbols of those people. Just as the Runes, especially the swastika, were symbols of the Germanics who used them.

    But the representative of the Dagna political ideology has attempted to take this conversation off top with a new post in another section concerning fighting in Rotterdam and then awaiting responses. Once a response was received, the Dagna ideological representative attempted a debating trick and substituted questions which the representative could not answer for questions the representative had poised itself to answer and then pretend it is all the same thing.

    I am awaiting answers to all the deficiencies in the Dagna political ideology which that representative has refused to address. Shall I repeat them today or shall I repeat them tomorrow?

  7. #57
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Looked up what MacDonald actually has to say on the matter:

    http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/SAIDCHAP5+Ref.pdf

    The National Socialist movement in Germany from 1933–1945 is a departure from Western tendencies toward universalism and muted individualism in the direction of racial nationalism and cohesive collec-tivism. The evidence reviewed below indicates that National Socialism developed in the context of group conflict between Jews and gentiles, and I propose that it may be usefully conceptualized as a group evolu-tionary strategy that was characterized by several key features that mir-rored Judaism as a group evolutionary strategy.
    Most basically, National Socialism aimed at developing a cohesive group. There was an emphasis on the inculcation of selfless behavior and within-group altruism combined with outgroup hostility (MacDonald 1988a, 298–300). These anti-individualist tendencies can be seen in the Hitler Youth movement (Koch 1976; Rempel 1989). After 1936, mem-bership was compulsory for children after their tenth birthday. A primary emphasis was to mold children to accept a group strategy of within-group altruism combined with hostility and aggression toward outgroups, particularly Jews. Children were taught an ideology of nationalism, the organic unity of the state, blind faith in Hitler, and anti-Semitism. Physi-cal courage, fighting skills, and a warlike mentality were encouraged, but the most important aspect of education was group loyalty: “Faithfulness and loyalty irrespective of the consequences were an article of faith shared among wide sections of Germany’s youth” (Koch 1976, 119).
    Socialization for group competition was strongly stressed, “all the em-phasis centering on obedience, duty to the group, and helping within the group” (Koch 1976, 128). The ideology of National Socialism viewed the entire society (excluding the Jews) as a large kinship group—a
    Separation and Its Discontents
    “Volksgemeinschaft transcending class and creed” (Rempel 1989, 5). A constant refrain of the literature of the Hitler Youth was the idea of the individual sacrificing himself for the leader:
    the basic idea is . . . that of a group of heroes inseparably tied to one another by an oath of faithfulness who, surrounded by physically and numerically superior foes, stand their ground. . . . Either the band of heroes is reduced to the last man, who is the leader himself defending the corpses of his followers—the grand finale of the Nibelungenlied—or through its unparalleled heroism brings about some favourable change in its fortune. (Koch 1976, 143)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    Whatever was involved here was done during a war. In wars, unfortunately, innocent people are always killed and by both sides. The symbols used are irrelevant. Right now the Stars and Stripes, apple pie, motherhood and the American way are being used to justify an oppression against people whose only "crime" is a dislike for Israel. Israel itself is conducting criminal war behavior. Should American symbols be taken away? Should the Star of David be taken away from Israel?

    No. Because they are symbols of those people. Just as the Runes, especially the swastika, were symbols of the Germanics who used them.
    I don't believe I ever said the fylfot or runes should be taken away from the Germans. If you asked instead if the American government abused the Stars and Stripes... et cetera, I would have to say yes.

    But the representative of the Dagna political ideology has attempted to take this conversation off top with a new post in another section concerning fighting in Rotterdam and then awaiting responses. Once a response was received, the Dagna ideological representative attempted a debating trick and substituted questions which the representative could not answer for questions the representative had poised itself to answer and then pretend it is all the same thing.

    I am awaiting answers to all the deficiencies in the Dagna political ideology which that representative has refused to address. Shall I repeat them today or shall I repeat them tomorrow?
    I believe you will be talking to yourself or anyone else but me. Since you continue to make a mockery out of me with immature provocations to my person instead of limiting to discussing the historical and ideological topics at hand, I believe I am going to ignore you. This is not one of the National Socialist interrogations and I am not one of your subjects. The conversation ends here, I believe from now on it will be a monologue.


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

  9. #59
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    Sometimes i'm really surprised by the Naivity of some Users on this Forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    German policemen tormenting a Jew in Rzeszów, Poland.
    Photos don't tell always the Truth. Photos tell alot, but not exactly what happened - Do you have any Witness-Account of this? How do you know he was tormented?
    Maybe that German was an Idiot and had Fun kicking a Man? Maybe the Man just raped a German Woman and got beaten up for that? Maybe the Man tried to thief something? Maybe the Man is suspected of being a Spy for Partisans who killed alot of German Citizens and Soldiers?

    How do you know Dagna? You know nothing, except what you want to know and believe.

    I don't deny that there were cruel People and Morons on each Side. There were always, and there always will be.

    You should quit your biased Beliefs of History and do some Research. Buy some Books from neutral Historians and read them.

    You just make everything as simple and easy as you want and make a fool out yourself with that.


    The National Socialist crimes were directed at Germanics too:

    Rotterdam's city center after the bombing. The heavily damaged (now restored) Laurenskerk stands out as the only remaining building reminiscent of Rotterdam's medieval architecture.
    It was War. What do you except? The Americans and English killed Million More Citizens with Bomb Raids than Germany did. But i never see you writing about the English Plutocrats and what so-called "anti-germanic" Actions they did.

    There is not only one Side in War which killed innocent People.
    Also there is not only one Side with Morons in a War.

    The Difference between Me and You is that i read Books from Soldiers on each Side and i talked to Soldiers aswell. And they all talked neutrally. They're not biased.

    Germans mentioned nice American Soldiers who were good and friendly and helped them.
    But they also mentioned Americans who had Fun torturing German Prisoners of War and raping German Women. They also mentioned Germans in their Regiments who were Assholes and abused their Power.

    And the same goes for other Sides. There are always Idiots. Some Men can't take War. They turn insane, they rape, they torture and murder out of Frustration. And there are also Gentleman on each Side.

    German Army executed German Soldiers if they raped Citizens of occupied Countries. Probably you believe such Actions were tolerated. They were not.

    Also starting a "Picture-War" is not a smart Idea. Because it makes no Sense. I could post Hundreds of Pictures of Allied Warcrimes against Germans.

    Such Pictures also exist one each Side.


    I can recommend you some Books of neutral Historians around the World concerning these Topics. Which yould change your biased View on History:

    - James Bacque - The Fate of German Civilians under Allied Occupation, 1944 - 1950

    - Ralph Franklin Keeling - Gruesome Harvest, The Costly Attempt to Exterminate the People of Germany

    - Arnold Krammer - Undue Process, The Untold Story of America's German Alien Internees

    - A.J.P Taylor - The Origins of the Second World War


    Just a few Books by renowned Historians you should read and learn Facts.


    You won't read them anyway, hence as i said before, you believe and know what you want. But you don't want to know it all.




    Gruß,
    Boche
    "We Germans fear God, but nothing else in the world; and already that godliness is it, which let us love and foster peace."
    - Otto von Bismarck, 1888

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boche View Post
    Sometimes i'm really surprised by the Naivity of some Users on this Forum.



    Photos don't tell always the Truth. Photos tell alot, but not exactly what happened - Do you have any Witness-Account of this? How do you know he was tormented?
    Maybe that German was an Idiot and had Fun kicking a Man? Maybe the Man just raped a German Woman and got beaten up for that? Maybe the Man tried to thief something? Maybe the Man is suspected of being a Spy for Partisans who killed alot of German Citizens and Soldiers?

    How do you know Dagna? You know nothing, except what you want to know and believe.

    I don't deny that there were cruel People and Morons on each Side. There were always, and there always will be.

    You should quit your biased Beliefs of History and do some Research. Buy some Books from neutral Historians and read them.

    You just make everything as simple and easy as you want and make a fool out yourself with that.




    It was War. What do you except? The Americans and English killed Million More Citizens with Bomb Raids than Germany did. But i never see you writing about the English Plutocrats and what so-called "anti-germanic" Actions they did.

    There is not only one Side in War which killed innocent People.
    Also there is not only one Side with Morons in a War.

    The Difference between Me and You is that i read Books from Soldiers on each Side and i talked to Soldiers aswell. And they all talked neutrally. They're not biased.

    Germans mentioned nice American Soldiers who were good and friendly and helped them.
    But they also mentioned Americans who had Fun torturing German Prisoners of War and raping German Women. They also mentioned Germans in their Regiments who were Assholes and abused their Power.

    And the same goes for other Sides. There are always Idiots. Some Men can't take War. They turn insane, they rape, they torture and murder out of Frustration. And there are also Gentleman on each Side.

    German Army executed German Soldiers if they raped Citizens of occupied Countries. Probably you believe such Actions were tolerated. They were not.

    Also starting a "Picture-War" is not a smart Idea. Because it makes no Sense. I could post Hundreds of Pictures of Allied Warcrimes against Germans.

    Such Pictures also exist one each Side.


    I can recommend you some Books of neutral Historians around the World concerning these Topics. Which yould change your biased View on History:

    - James Bacque - The Fate of German Civilians under Allied Occupation, 1944 - 1950

    - Ralph Franklin Keeling - Gruesome Harvest, The Costly Attempt to Exterminate the People of Germany

    - Arnold Krammer - Undue Process, The Untold Story of America's German Alien Internees

    - A.J.P Taylor - The Origins of the Second World War


    Just a few Books by renowned Historians you should read and learn Facts.


    You won't read them anyway, hence as i said before, you believe and know what you want. But you don't want to know it all.




    Gruß,
    Boche
    I don't believe I denied any crimes committed by the Allies. I don't believe the Allies were perfect either. Boche, I believe I do read literature from both sides. I am aware that they planned to conduct a genocide agaisnt Germans. The Allies too have abused the symbols of my country and the symbols of my ancestors. However, no one here has argued in favor of the Allies being the most "moral" people. National Socialist Germany under the megalomaniac, hater known as Hitler who turned more and more insane with age and harmed his own nation was not a moral form of government. I have spoken to Germans who lived in the Third Reich and they have many bad memories. They had no freedom of expression, they always had to watch that they didn't make jokes about Hitler or National Socialism. People had to go to war and send their children to war. They compared it to the Stalinist regime. This regime, Boche, claimed to be for the people. But this regime did not only harm the people through the war which Hitler stubbornly wanted to continue and fight on two fronts which made him lose, it also harmed the chances for nationalism in Germany as today anything nationalist is stereotyped as "nazi". Today, German officials do not even criticize the atrocious and blood spilling policies of Israel because of the "Holocaust duty". Which part of the war was it, Boche, to round up Jewish people and kill them? Does murdering people for their ethnicity count as part of justifiable self-defense in a war? The National Socialist officials confessed that their aim was to annihilate every Jew in the Reich. Was every Jew in the Reich a thief or a partisan? How about the women and children, Boche? Were they also a threat? What about the homosexuals, Roma and other people who were put in camps? How is it any better than the Americans who put Germans and Japanese in camps because of their ethnicity? How about planning to invade and bombing neutral Germanic countries? The National Socialists committed crimes, the Allies committed crimes, the difference is that Germanicists from the Allied countries do not condone these regimes and strategies and call them "the most moral governments in human history". I don't believe you can find a person on this site or in the Germanicist circles from the USA who doesn't condemn the Allies for what they did. The Allies abused our symbols and our values. And the National Socialists did the same.


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

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