Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: Do Individuals Control History, or Do History and Fate Control Individuals?

  1. #1
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Last Online
    Thursday, July 5th, 2012 @ 07:07 AM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    Metropolis
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Single
    Occupation
    Journalist
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    6,666
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    23 Posts

    Do Individuals Control History, or Do History and Fate Control Individuals?

    The prescience of genius is an argument in favor of fate, and an argument against free will; if events can be foreseen long before they occur, they must have been caused neither by individuals nor by circumstances, but by history and fate. It appears that Hitler was the cause of the Holocaust, and that the Depression was the cause of Hitler’s rise to power. But if the Holocaust was foreseen a century before it occurred, then it can’t be ascribed to particular individuals, or to particular circumstances. While Hitler was the proximate cause of the Holocaust, and while the Depression was the proximate cause of Hitler’s rise to power, the root causes of these events lie far deeper than any particular individuals or particular circumstances.

    Throughout his life, Hitler acted like one who was the agent of fate. When he wrote Mein Kampf in the 1920’s, Hitler sketched the history of the 1930’s and 1940’s. He anticipated a great war, and he anticipated that Germany might be destroyed by the war. Hitler felt that his life and his actions were the result not of accident or of choice, but of fate. With fate supporting him, he felt that he possessed great power, that he was invincible, hence he had complete confidence in himself. His confidence enabled him to speak with passion, energy, and conviction, and it enabled him to captivate a nation.

    Hitler relied on his unconscious to reveal what was fated to occur; he relied on hunches and intuitions. “I go the way Providence dictates,” said Hitler, “with the assurance of a sleepwalker.”7 Hitler’s dependence on fate and on his unconscious was so complete that he lost touch with reality, and wasn’t wholly sane.

    Napoleon, whose career resembled Hitler’s in many ways, felt, like Hitler, that he was the agent of fate, that he could foresee the future, and that he didn’t control events but rather was controlled by them. “I always had an inner sense,” said Napoleon, “of what awaited me.... Nothing ever happened to me which I did not foresee.”8 Napoleon thought that any attempt to assassinate him, before his fate had run its course, was certain to fail — and in fact, many such attempts did fail.

    Do individuals control history, or do history and fate control individuals? That is to say are certain things destined to happen?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    DanseMacabre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    Saturday, December 6th, 2008 @ 11:54 PM
    Ethnicity
    American
    Ancestry
    English and German
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Kansas Kansas
    Gender
    Age
    37
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Idealist
    Politics
    Nationalism
    Religion
    Odinism
    Posts
    237
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    8
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    I have always thought that important events in history and in our lives individually were destined to happen. I have no fancy philosophical argument to prove this is true. I base this on things in my own life. People I've met that have changed my life whom I never would have met if certain events had not taken place. I can see this pattern in World History also. So yes I believe fate and history control individuals.
    “Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people, a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs-Jon Jay, Federalist Papers

  3. #3
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Last Online
    Thursday, July 5th, 2012 @ 07:07 AM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    Metropolis
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Single
    Occupation
    Journalist
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    6,666
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    23 Posts
    I posted something really good but than the window closed and now I'm too sleepy to retype it. But it basically went like I believe somepeople can see into the future and therefore can influence the present more than others. And that history guides people and can be guided by people but whatever happens is Fated to Happen and can not be controlled by people in the sense that there is no certanity in Life.

    http://www.ljhammond.com/cwgt/05.htm

    Genius and Prophecy Genius can see into the future. The Roman writer Seneca foresaw the discovery of the Americas. In the thirteenth century, Roger Bacon foresaw the automobile and the airplane. Leonardo foresaw many mechanical inventions, including the steam engine, the airplane, the parachute, the submarine, the tank, and the machine gun. Rousseau, in 1762, foresaw the French Revolution and the demise of the European monarchies. Jefferson, in 1820, foresaw the American Civil War. Tocqueville, in 1835, foresaw that the United States and Russia would one day be the world’s most powerful nations.4 Heine foresaw Nazi militarism and genocide; Heine predicted that the forces found in German philosophy would someday “erupt and fill the world with terror and amazement,” and that, “a play will be performed which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll.”5 Kafka predicted that men “will try to grind the synagogue to dust by destroying the Jews themselves.” Burckhardt foresaw the misfortunes of Germany; when the Kaiser was crowned at Versailles in 1871, Burckhardt said, “that is the doom of Germany.”6 Nietzsche foresaw the psychology of the unconscious, the world wars and the rise of Russia.

    7. Hitler and Fate Do individuals control history, or do history and fate control individuals? The prescience of genius is an argument in favor of fate, and an argument against free will; if events can be foreseen long before they occur, they must have been caused neither by individuals nor by circumstances, but by history and fate. It appears that Hitler was the cause of the Holocaust, and that the Depression was the cause of Hitler’s rise to power. But if the Holocaust was foreseen a century before it occurred, then it can’t be ascribed to particular individuals, or to particular circumstances. While Hitler was the proximate cause of the Holocaust, and while the Depression was the proximate cause of Hitler’s rise to power, the root causes of these events lie far deeper than any particular individuals or particular circumstances.

    Throughout his life, Hitler acted like one who was the agent of fate. When he wrote Mein Kampf in the 1920’s, Hitler sketched the history of the 1930’s and 1940’s. He anticipated a great war, and he anticipated that Germany might be destroyed by the war. Hitler felt that his life and his actions were the result not of accident or of choice, but of fate. With fate supporting him, he felt that he possessed great power, that he was invincible, hence he had complete confidence in himself. His confidence enabled him to speak with passion, energy, and conviction, and it enabled him to captivate a nation.

    Hitler relied on his unconscious to reveal what was fated to occur; he relied on hunches and intuitions. “I go the way Providence dictates,” said Hitler, “with the assurance of a sleepwalker.”7 Hitler’s dependence on fate and on his unconscious was so complete that he lost touch with reality, and wasn’t wholly sane.

  4. #4
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    Sunday, September 28th, 2008 @ 03:36 AM
    Age
    31
    Posts
    333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Dear DriftWood,

    1. Economic anthropology is more informatively useful than any non-comparative understanding of the "the proximate cause of Hitler’s rise to power".

    2. Economic anthropology is built upon a single maxim, that institutions existed before processes.

    3. Social fatalism has never been institutionalised.

    4. Social fatalism in itself can not be held responsible for any system of life or action.

    5. Hitler was not an agent of fate.

    6. Hitler was human.

    7. Hitler was not a perfect actor.

    8. Your argument is invalid.

  5. #5
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Last Online
    Thursday, July 5th, 2012 @ 07:07 AM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Country
    United States United States
    Location
    Metropolis
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Single
    Occupation
    Journalist
    Religion
    Protestant
    Posts
    6,666
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    23
    Thanked in
    23 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Talan View Post
    Dear DriftWood,

    1. Economic anthropology is built upon a single maxim, that institutions existed before processes.

    2. Social fatalism has never been institutionalised.

    3. Social fatalism in itself can not be held responsible for any system of life or action.

    4. Economic anthropology is more informatively useful than any non-comparative understanding of the "the proximate cause of Hitler’s rise to power".

    5. Hitler was not an agent of fate.

    6. Hitler was human.

    7. Hitler was not a perfect actor.

    8. Your argument is invalid.
    Ok w/e? I don't understand a word of what your saying.:p
    Hitler is just an example. If Hitler wasn't an agent of fate than what was he?

  6. #6
    Account Inactive

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Last Online
    Sunday, September 28th, 2008 @ 03:36 AM
    Age
    31
    Posts
    333
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts
    Dear DriftWood,

    ...agenticism

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Last Online
    Sunday, July 1st, 2012 @ 01:21 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Ancestry
    50% German, 25% English, 25% Irish
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Virginia Virginia
    Location
    Washington DC
    Gender
    Age
    41
    Family
    Single adult
    Occupation
    Construction, writer/editor
    Politics
    Libertarian
    Religion
    Atheist
    Posts
    2,989
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    62
    Thanked in
    62 Posts
    Probably a mix of both. Intelligent people are capable of viewing history and the present, and predicting trends that will go into the future, and anticipating potential results of their actions.
    Contact Congress on immigration
    Contact Congress to reject banker bailout
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Lichtblick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Last Online
    2 Days Ago @ 10:46 PM
    Ethnicity
    German
    Gender
    Posts
    61
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post
    As an agnostic I watch daily life as an atheist.
    History is the sum of all those single days gone by. Hence there's no divine essence (in the metaphysical sense) or sth. like that within it.

    Result: There are no universal values, no higher plan, no teleology.

    Nonetheless there are certain procedures (though nothing so precisely as Nietzsche's Eternal Return, maybe a bit spenglerian), which came and will come again and again just because of the constancy of the framework on the one hand and the of all human life on the other hand. So great men (not judgmental yet) may see and combine to a certain extent.
    "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible."

    - T. E. Lawrence

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    MockTurtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Last Online
    Saturday, April 28th, 2012 @ 05:33 AM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Ancestry
    Northwestern Europe
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Washington Washington
    Location
    Pacific NW
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Occupation
    Student
    Politics
    Racialist Free Enterprise
    Religion
    Atheism
    Posts
    462
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DriftWood
    It appears that Hitler was the cause of the Holocaust, and that the Depression was the cause of Hitler’s rise to power.
    Was it really though? I'm not sure if you're stating this just for the sake of intellectual exercise, but if it's actually true that the Depression "caused" Hitler's rise to power, than why didn't other movements succeed elsewhere? The Depression was global in scope, but the Nazis were the only explicitly racialist/nationalist political party that managed to succeed during the early 1930's. In fact, on the whole, racialist thinking started to become less pronounced during this period (i.e. 1930's) throughout the Western world, especially in the US. Why the discrepancy between Germany and the rest of the West?


    Do individuals control history, or do history and fate control individuals? That is to say are certain things destined to happen?
    I think it's something in-between. History doesn't stop or even wait for anyone, it follows a pattern of its own based on human nature at the level of millions (i.e. group behavior as opposed to individual behavior). But, I also think that it's possible for highly intelligent individuals who are uniquely "in touch" with the underlying nature of humankind to be able to influence this pattern to some degree. This is what sets apart those individuals who really managed to impact the historical process from those who just managed to scratch it. Look at Hitler, as just one example: he had almost no formal "qualifications" at all, and yet this didn't prevent him from convincing others around him (many of whom did have formal qualifications) that he was worthy of his position. He was guided more by "instinct" than anything else.

    So, I don't think that history/fate "controlled" him so much as he just clearly possessed an unusual ability to "read" human nature and act accordingly. Most people lack this quality, and so perhaps he just interpreted this as being on a "higher level" (i.e. the level of fate).

  10. #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Last Online
    Friday, April 3rd, 2009 @ 10:10 PM
    Status
    Available
    Ethnicity
    Norwegian
    Ancestry
    Maternal: Norway, Paternal: Massachusetts
    Subrace
    I don't know Lundman's taxonomy.
    Country
    United States United States
    State
    Connecticut Connecticut
    Location
    South Glastonbury, Connecticut
    Gender
    Age
    90
    Family
    Single, not looking
    Occupation
    Nothing (retired)
    Politics
    monarchist
    Religion
    agnostic
    Posts
    1,698
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    25
    Thanked in
    25 Posts

    What controls whom or vice versa ?

    History and fate control the destinies of weak individuals. Strong individuals influence, at least temporarily, the course of history.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Are Some Individuals Incapable of Being Liked?
    By Northern Paladin in forum Men, Women, & Relationships
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011, 11:25 PM
  2. UN Wants Individuals To Be Licensed To Use The Internet
    By Nachtengel in forum Internet, Security, & Privacy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Wednesday, February 10th, 2010, 08:23 PM
  3. Can You Classify These Two Individuals?
    By Untersberger in forum Anthropological Taxonomy
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Saturday, January 9th, 2010, 10:50 AM
  4. What Creates Leptosomic Individuals?
    By Schutzstaffelor in forum Physical Anthropology
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Monday, September 5th, 2005, 03:44 AM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Sunday, May 9th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •