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Thread: Pan-Germanic America: Defining an American Pan-Germanic Identity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Anglo-Saxons are not a meta-Ethnicity. They are a Union of two Germanic Tribes (Angels + Saxons).
    Self-contradiction: both these tribes originated in todays Denmark and Germany, merged in a higher meta-ethnic entity/unity. In an American context (which is the main subject of this thread), "Anglo-Saxon" - as in WASP - is a meta-ethnic concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Southern Germany is almost traditionally Catholic. Some Bavarians even believe that Catholicism is a Requirement of true Bavarian Identity, like Lutheranism is a Part of Transylvanian Saxon Identity. There are many recent German Immigrants to the USA, many post-WW2.
    If you really want to pursue this train of thought, you'll have to show that a majority of German Americans are/have been Catholics, and that they were counted as WASPs despite of their Catholicism. But even then, I fail to see why this is so important to the subject being discussed in this thread.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Self-contradiction: both these tribes originated in todays Denmark and Germany, merged in a higher meta-ethnic entity/unity. In an American context (which is the main subject of this thread), "Anglo-Saxon" - as in WASP - is a meta-ethnic concept.
    Perhaps in America it is considered a "meta-ethnic Concept", though I doubt it considering the Americans I had Conversations with, but in Europe it is not. There is no Contradition. Germanic = Meta-Ethnicity, Meta-Ethnicity has smaller Sub-Divisions called Tribes which contributed to the Formation of Nationalities. We learned this among the first Things in Ethnology Class. You mentioned Europe, that is why I commented.

    If you really want to pursue this train of thought, you'd have to show that a majority of German Americans are/have been Catholics, and that they were counted as WASPs despite of their Catholicism. But even then, I fail to see why this is important to the subject being discussed in this thread.
    I don't know the Religion of the Majority of German-Americans. My Point is/was that WASP is not a meta-Ethnicity, it is a smaller Unit. That is, if we care not to express ourselves incorrectly, in Ethnological Terms.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    There is no Contradition. Germanic = Meta-Ethnicity, Meta-Ethnicity has smaller Sub-Divisions called Tribes which contributed to the Formation of Nationalities.
    You claimed that Anglo-Saxons "are a Union of two Germanic Tribes", and yet you deny that Anglo-Saxons can be considered a meta-Ethnicity, having "smaller sub-divisions called tribes"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    My Point is/was that WASP is not a meta-Ethnicity, it is a smaller Unit. That is, if we care not to express ourselves incorrectly, in Ethnological Terms.
    Could you come up with an ethnological definition of meta-ethnicity, according to which WASP is not to be considered "meta-ethnic"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    My Point is/was that WASP is not a meta-Ethnicity, it is a smaller Unit. That is, if we care not to express ourselves incorrectly, in Ethnological Terms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Could you come up with an ethnological definition of meta-ethnicity, according to which WASP is not to be considered "meta-ethnic"?
    We aren't going to get anywhere in this if we regard ethnology as the same sort of science as Newtonian mechanics! Ethnos, subethnos, metaethnos are all relative notions and can shift their boundaries and hierarchies over time. Given a few centuries, the descendants of Britons around the world could even develop new languages, lacking in mutual intelligibility, and would develop into new ethnicities, for which the old Anglo-Saxon commonality would become a meta-ethnic identity. What's the problem with this?

    Even in Classical times, Tacitus remarked on the existence of an extra level of hierarchy between Germanics as a whole, and the constituent tribes - his divisions of Ingvaeones, and the other two (whose names have shamefully slipped my mind!). There is thus a meta-ethnic division between Anglo-Saxon and Germanic. Over time, these things develop.

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    OK Vingolf, I think we may be essentially in agreement...it's the terminology that's being debated.

    Basically, what I don't understand is why it needs to be called "pan-Germanic". By "destroy" American values/etc. I meant that a "pan-Germanic" idea sounds like it is divisive amongst Germanic Americans. It seems as though it would be breaking the whole WASP or Anglo-American or American concept down into different ethnicities somehow. If not, why call it "pan"? It seems to me that in order to have a "pan" concept you need to have separate smaller parts under the term and they need to differ from each other in some significant ways.

    "Pan-Isles" for instance would mean that there would be Irish and Scottish and English and Cornish. But all those people are different in ways. If they were not different then why not just say that they are "Isles" or give them one ethnic name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Basically, what I don't understand is why it needs to be called "pan-Germanic".
    It doesn't. A pet child has many names... As already mentioned, you may call it something else, if that makes you feel any better (trans-, supra-, neo-pan- etc. etc.).

    I meant that a "pan-Germanic" idea sounds like it is divisive amongst Germanic Americans. It seems as though it would be breaking the whole WASP or Anglo-American or American concept down into different ethnicities somehow.
    In that case, I think you've misunderstood the whole concept.

    If not, why call it "pan"? It seems to me that in order to have a "pan" concept you need to have separate smaller parts under the term and they need to differ from each other in some significant ways.
    What makes you think so? There are to some extent "separate smaller parts" in the first place. These merged in the (originally "pan-Germanic") WASP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    What makes you think so? There are to some extent "separate smaller parts" in the first place. These merged in the (originally "pan-Germanic") WASP.
    OK, so if they merged it wouldn't need to be called "pan". They merged into one identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    OK, so if they merged it wouldn't need to be called "pan". They merged into one identity.
    Let's not over-simplify this... "They" merged and became "Americans", "WASPs" etc. in the 19th and early 20th centuries. We all know what happened later, especially after WWII (watering down the very concept of a Germanic core WASP nation). The main problem is, of course, the lack of a strong meta-ethnic identity among Germanic Americans. They do not, as Jewish Americans for instance, sufficiently advocate their (group)interests. Many of them even tend to act contrary to their own group interests. Radical individualism was a good thing as long as America remained largely Germanic, but needs to be accompanied by a strengthened meta-ethnic group consciousness from day 1 when America became a multi-ethnic society with hostile, influential anti-Germanic elites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Let's not over-simplify this... "They" merged and became "Americans", "WASPs" etc. in the 19th and early 20th centuries. We all know what happened later, especially after WWII (watering down the very concept of a Germanic core WASP nation). The main problem is, of course, the lack of a strong meta-ethnic identity among Germanic Americans. They do not, as Jewish Americans for instance, sufficiently advocate their (group)interests. Many of them even tend to act contrary to their own group interests. Radical individualism was a good thing as long as America remained largely Germanic, but needs to be accompanied by a strengthened meta-ethnic group consciousness from day 1 when America became a multi-ethnic society with hostile, influential anti-Germanic elites.
    I do agree with all of that, but my problem is still why "meta-ethnic" and not "ethnic"? I know that there are some Americans who are very much ethnic Germans or Swedes for instance. But the majority of Germanic Americans are not culturally German or Swedish and they share more with each other culturally and even biologically (since they sometimes have common American ancestors and are a mixture of European ethnicities) than with the German or Swede proper. So I wouldn't technically call them separate ethnicities.

    Our problem lies somewhere in there. ^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I do agree with all of that, but my problem is still why "meta-ethnic" and not "ethnic"? I know that there are some Americans who are very much ethnic Germans or Swedes for instance. But the majority of Germanic Americans are not culturally German or Swedish and they share more with each other culturally and even biologically (since they sometimes have common American ancestors and are a mixture of European ethnicities) than with the German or Swede proper. So I wouldn't technically call them separate ethnicities.
    Perhaps you're right (I certainly hope you are), that there is a "supra-Germanic" ethnic consciousness within the Germanic WASP-core (at least in the Midwest). If that is so, I guess you can call it a Germanic ethnicity instead of a "pan-Germanic" meta-ethnicity. Anyway, it's obviously not strong enough to change the course of events.

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