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Thread: Pan-Germanic America: Defining an American Pan-Germanic Identity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Hehe, forgive me, but I half thought this was a joke, given the Russian influence on the orthography... :p
    (Those backwards 'N's look like the Cyrillic 'I')
    Then again, it's from the good old days, literacy and intelligence didn't necessarily go hand in hand - my very own great great grandfather signed his census return as "Hennery Brennan".
    Probably you are right that it was intentional. Americans at that time were concerned over immigration from strange corners of Europe, immigration from non-European countries was not even comprehended as a possibility.

    As to the spelling of names, it was not standardized until recent times. If you like at many English, Dutch, and German names, many are pronounced the same or similar and yet spelled very different.
    Contact Congress on immigration
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    It should be apparent that Americans are not, I repeat are not, culturally the same as Europeans of any ethnicity.
    Depends on your basis for comparison... Scandinavian or German Europeans with Scandinavian or German Americans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    As for what are American values and culture, I don't think I could just point at certain aspects. [...] Things like individualism, the puritan work ethic, team work, being goal-oriented, being able to state your opinion, risk taking, etc. There's most certainly some shared culture and values between most Americans.
    Sounds very European to me... But how would pan-Germanism "destroy" a lot of these values, as you claimed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Sociologists are always going off about the "Anglo-core culture". This "anglo-core" is essentially the culture I am referring to. And it has been called "anglo" but it's not exclusively English. Not that it isn't called "Anglo" for no reason whatsoever. Clearly, the English have put more into this culture than any other group.
    Isn't "WASP" more widespread than "anglo-core"? WASP is clearly a meta-ethnic ("pan-Germanic") concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ossi View Post
    The "reasonably educated" persons these days get their education from multiculturally influenced institutions. Of course they're taught that national identities aren't worth preserving, it's part of the xenophilic agenda.
    In my world intelligence and analytical capacity usually accompany education. Truly educated individuals are outside the scope of your sarcastic taxonomies.

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  5. #33
    Senior Member Soten's Avatar
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    Depends on your basis for comparison... Scandinavian or German Europeans with Scandinavian or German Americans?
    Um, I mean a "German-American" won't be culturally the same as a German and that a "German-American" is not going to be much different if at all from an "Anglo-American" if both have been born here and their families have been here for some time. I think that's your question?

    Sounds very European to me... But how would pan-Germanism "destroy" a lot of these values, as you claimed?
    Well, pan-Germanicism seems like it would imply not one ethnicity/culture but a whole bunch of Germanic groups living together and maintaining their separate cultures. For instance, a Dutch-American would be Dutch and an Austrian-American would be Austrian...if they could, which I doubt. Pan-Germanicism in that sense would destroy an American identity in that it would replace the American heritage with some attempt to relearn the ethnic cultures of their ancestors. I would differentiate between "learning about" and "relearning". "Learning about" is great, it's fantastic. It would mean you learn about your ancestors and their culture/language. "Relearning" sounds like an attempt to change your culture into what maybe your ancestors had pre-American immigration. Pan-Germanic means "all people who have any Germanic culture" which would imply that there would be different cultures which means multiculturalism. The alternative American idea I talked about was the way it used to be and was much more about simply being American...one culture plus local variants.


    Isn't "WASP" more widespread than "anglo-core"? WASP is clearly a meta-ethnic ("pan-Germanic") concept.
    To me, WASP and the anglo-core have always been presented as one and the same. The WASP is a person who's culture is the so called "anglo-core" of America. No, it's not pan-Germanic because these people share one culture (more or less). Their ancestors may have come from different Germanic and Celtic countries but those have been replaced by this anglo core culture by and large...WASP culture I guess, although I dislike the word. I've only ever heard it used in a negative way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Um, I mean a "German-American" won't be culturally the same as a German and that a "German-American" is not going to be much different if at all from an "Anglo-American" if both have been born here and their families have been here for some time. I think that's your question?
    What I was trying to point out was that "Americans" and "Europeans" are cultural-historical-geopolitical, not ethnic or meta-ethnic, concepts. I agree that "German Americans" are different from "German Europeans" etc. The extent of differentness remains, however, an open question. "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree," as the saying goes. I don't think culture, mentality and ethnicity can be strictly separated. Do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Well, pan-Germanicism seems like it would imply not one ethnicity/culture but a whole bunch of Germanic groups living together and maintaining their separate cultures. For instance, a Dutch-American would be Dutch and an Austrian-American would be Austrian...
    Pan-Germanism in this context entails a kind of pan-Germanic tribalistic consciousness and identity. As you've already mentioned, a German American is to some extent different from a German European. But they share a common transatlantic Germanic heritage. In Europe, "tribal" consciousness/identity is to a considerable extent (historically) tied to the nation state. American national (non-tribal) identity is to some extent tied to ideology (liberalism, moral universalism, equality etc.), all with the exception of an elitistic tribe of middle eastern origins, of course...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Pan-Germanicism in that sense would destroy an American identity in that it would replace the American heritage with some attempt to relearn the ethnic cultures of their ancestors.
    You claimed that pan-Germanism would "destroy" traditional American values. I still can't figure out how. I do agree, though, that pan-Germanic tribalism would to some extent "destroy" the contemporary de-tribalized American identity, to some extent rooted in ideologies of 18th century Europe (moral universalism, liberalism, egalitarianism etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Pan-Germanic means "all people who have any Germanic culture" which would imply that there would be different cultures which means multiculturalism. The alternative American idea I talked about was the way it used to be and was much more about simply being American...one culture plus local variants.
    Common heritage - the common multiple - is the key idea behind the WASP as well as pan-Germanic tribalism. In the globalized, cosmopolitan world of the 21st century, civilizations constitute geopolitical centres of gravity, not nation states. The same goes for ethnicities. A lot of the Germanic ethnicities are to some extent artificial historico-political constructs. A German (European or American) has infinitely more in common with a Dutch (American or European) or a Scandinavian, than with people of non-Germanic origins. The traditional WASP concept embraced these perspectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    To me, WASP and the anglo-core have always been presented as one and the same. The WASP is a person who's culture is the so called "anglo-core" of America. No, it's not pan-Germanic because these people share one culture (more or less).
    As mentioned above: common heritage - the common multiple - is the key idea behind the WASP. Call it whatever you want: trans-, supra- or pan-Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Isn't "WASP" more widespread than "anglo-core"? WASP is clearly a meta-ethnic ("pan-Germanic") concept.
    Hmm I wouldn't think so. WASP is an Abbreviation for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant so that would exclude other Germanics. I find it hard to believe that Germans or Scandinavians would be considered WASPs, especially if they are Catholic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Hmm I wouldn't think so. WASP is an Abbreviation for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant so that would exclude other Germanics. I find it hard to believe that Germans or Scandinavians would be considered WASPs, especially if they are Catholic.
    Indeed--but those who were Protestant were accepted into the fold of "white America" or WASP America, historically speaking, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Hmm I wouldn't think so. WASP is an Abbreviation for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant so that would exclude other Germanics. I find it hard to believe that Germans or Scandinavians would be considered WASPs, especially if they are Catholic.
    Scandinavia has been 100% Protestant since the 16th century. Most Germans have been Protestants since the days of Luther...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Scandinavia has been 100% Protestant since the 16th century.
    But not Anglo-Saxon.

    I have read that there is some Secularism in Scandinavia:
    http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/sca....html#Religion

    Most Germans have been Protestants since the days of Luther...
    Not really, Germany is about equally Catholic as it is Protestant when it comes to Christianity.

    Christianity is the largest religion in Germany adherents, with the Protestant Evangelical Church in Germany (particularly in the north and east) comprising 31.0 % of the population and Roman Catholics (particularly in the south and west) with also roughly 31.0 %.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...ies_in_Germany

    Moreover, there is Secularism in some German States too.

    In eastern Germany both religious observance and affiliation are much lower than in the rest of the country after forty years of Communist rule. The government of the German Democratic Republic encouraged an atheist worldview through institutions such as Jugendweihen (youth consecrations), secular coming-of-age ceremonies akin to Christian confirmation which all young people were strongly encouraged to attend (and disadvantaged socially if they did not). The average church attendance is now one of the lowest in the world, with only 5% attending at least once per week, compared to 14% in the rest of the country according to a recent study. The number of christenings, religious weddings and funerals is also lower than in the West.

    There is a non-religious majority in Hamburg, Berlin, Brandenburg, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. In the eastern state of Saxony-Anhalt only 19.7 percent belong to the two big denominations of the country. This is the state where Martin Luther was born.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...ism_in_Germany

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    But not Anglo-Saxon.
    In a European context, there is a considerable Germano-Scandinavian element behind the term "Anglo-Saxon". In an American context, as already mentioned, both Germans and Scandinavians were considered as WASPs (W = "race", AS = linguistics/meta-ethnicity, P = religion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    Not really, Germany is about equally Catholic as it is Protestant when it comes to Christianity. Christianity is the largest religion in Germany adherents, with the Protestant Evangelical Church in Germany (particularly in the north and east) comprising 31.0 % of the population and Roman Catholics (particularly in the south and west) with also roughly 31.0 %.
    You're describing the contemporary situation, which is quite irrelevant here. The expansion of the Reformation in Europe largely followed the Limes germanicus, i.e. contemporary Germany. However, the Peace of Augsburg (1555) introduced the principle that (with some exceptions) the inhabitants of each of Germany's numerous territories should follow the religion of the ruler; the south and west thus becoming mainly Roman Catholic, the north and east Protestant. In pre-wwII East Germany, for instance, Protestants outnumbered Roman Catholics about seven to one. Most Germanics have been Protestants for the last 400-500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    In a European context, there is a considerable Germano-Scandinavian element behind the term "Anglo-Saxon". In an American context, as already mentioned, both Germans and Scandinavians were considered as WASPs (W = "race", AS = linguistics/meta-ethnicity, P = religion).
    In Europe, we refer to the English as Anglo-Saxons, to the Germans, (sometimes also Austrians and Swiss) as German and to the Scandinavians as Scandinavian or Nordic. Anglo-Saxons are not a meta-Ethnicity. They are a Union of two Germanic Tribes (Angels + Saxons). Germanics are a meta-Ethnicity which include more (former or present) Tribes than Angles and Saxons.

    You're describing the contemporary situation, which is quite irrelevant here. The expansion of the Reformation in Europe largely followed the Limes germanicus, i.e. contemporary Germany. However, the Peace of Augsburg (1555) introduced the principle that (with some exceptions) the inhabitants of each of Germany's numerous territories should follow the religion of the ruler; the south and west thus becoming mainly Roman Catholic, the north and east Protestant. In pre-wwII East Germany, for instance, Protestants outnumbered Roman Catholics about seven to one. Most Germanics have been Protestants for the last 400-500 years.
    Southern Germany is almost traditionally Catholic. Some Bavarians even believe that Catholicism is a Requirement of true Bavarian Identity, like Lutheranism is a Part of Transylvanian Saxon Identity. There are many recent German Immigrants to the USA, many post-WW2.

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