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Thread: Do You Think That the West is Under Attack?

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    Senior Member Eccardus Teutonicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    And so, in your revision of history, how were Greeks and Germanics ethnoculturally directly related before Germanics became part of the Christian sphere?
    Revision? I presented a hard fact, unlike your resort to a late development based on personal bias. Unity in the West comes from a geographic or cultural notion, not a religious one. The East was the land of the Arabs and Egyptians, the West was the land of the barbarians, that's where our notion of "West" comes from. Since we are in general more heavily influenced by the romance traditions, the Greek understanding of the world as "East" and "West" has persisted; Christianity is a mere coincidence.

    Regarding ethocultural relations, the Greeks themselves were aware of the Germanic peoples (and the Celts, who marched right through Macedon to settle in Bithynia) and were well acquainted with the Latins. The Germanics, Celts, and Etruscans had significant exchanges between them, proven by a number of bracteates dating between the 4th and 1st century BC. Perhaps the most famous proof of cultural exchange, however, is inscription B in the Negau Helm find, which features a Germanic inscription in Etruscan letters. Latin coinage made it's way north before the Gaius Julius "Caesar" was a twinkle in his father's eye. Therefore, the foundations of what we have come to see as a culturally unified whole, i.e. "The West", finds it's origin in two places: as a geographic entity, from ancient Greek geography, and as a cultural entity, again from the Greeks, who regarded everyone to the west of them as an amorphus blob of barbarism. While perhaps somewhat judgemental, they were not wrong to unite them, since sufficient cultural interactions did occur between Celts, Iberians, Germans, Latins, Carthaginians, and many others in Europe before even the days of Judas Maccabeus, let alone those of Judas Iscariot.
    οὐκ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογεῖν σοφόν ἐστιν ἓν πάντα εἶναί.
    Heraclitus

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wagnerian View Post
    Revision? I presented a hard fact, unlike your resort to a late development based on personal bias. Unity in the West comes from a geographic or cultural notion, not a religious one. The East was the land of the Arabs and Egyptians, the West was the land of the barbarians, that's where our notion of "West" comes from. Since we are in general more heavily influenced by the romance traditions, the Greek understanding of the world as "East" and "West" has persisted; Christianity is a mere coincidence.

    Regarding ethocultural relations, the Greeks themselves were aware of the Germanic peoples (and the Celts, who marched right through Macedon to settle in Bithynia) and were well acquainted with the Latins. The Germanics, Celts, and Etruscans had significant exchanges between them, proven by a number of bracteates dating between the 4th and 1st century BC. Perhaps the most famous proof of cultural exchange, however, is inscription B in the Negau Helm find, which features a Germanic inscription in Etruscan letters. Latin coinage made it's way north before the Gaius Julius "Caesar" was a twinkle in his father's eye. Therefore, the foundations of what we have come to see as a culturally unified whole, i.e. "The West", finds it's origin in two places: as a geographic entity, from ancient Greek geography, and as a cultural entity, again from the Greeks, who regarded everyone to the west of them as an amorphus blob of barbarism. While perhaps somewhat judgemental, they were not wrong to unite them, since sufficient cultural interactions did occur between Celts, Iberians, Germans, Latins, Carthaginians, and many others in Europe before even the days of Judas Maccabeus, let alone those of Judas Iscariot.
    None of this means that Greeks and Germanics were ethnoculturally related at that point. We trade with the Japanese today, but that doesn't mean that we are ethnoculturally related.
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    Senior Member Eccardus Teutonicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    None of this means that Greeks and Germanics were ethnoculturally related at that point. We trade with the Japanese today, but that doesn't mean that we are ethnoculturally related.
    You are obviously unfamiliar with the phenomenon of Amerimanga and other adapted Japanese traditions into the West. Trade and exchange can lead to relations-- while you cannot claim any direct relation between the West and Japan on the sole basis of the exchange of anime, the exchange between latins and Germanics are far greater. The runes themselves come from an Italic (be it Latin or Etruscan, there's a bit of debate) source! Ethnic relation between Greeks, Romans, Celts, and Germans? Not greatly I would say, but culturally the exchange between these proto-ethnicities is undeniable.

    Not to mention that Germanic, Italic, Celtic, and Slavic languages are all Indo-European, meaning that ultimately all of these cultures and ethnicities spring from the same common source. However the argument is changing here; my assertion was that the root of our understanding of "The West" comes from a geographic unity, not a religious unity. Since you have not offered a challenge to this, may I assume that you accept my proof that Christianity plays a minor, if even mentionable, role in establishing the identity today known as "West"?
    οὐκ ἐμοῦ, ἀλλὰ τοῦ λόγου ἀκούσαντας ὁμολογεῖν σοφόν ἐστιν ἓν πάντα εἶναί.
    Heraclitus

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    Senior Member Leof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    We shouldn't allow people to lie about them. But I don't even think we'll be in agreement on the Althing about what the West is. What I think: The only truly historical West that I would be a part of is the geopolitical sphere of Western Christianism. But in terms of faith and culture there is a divide even within the Germanic scope of this wider sphere, between papism and antipapism and furthermore between Catholicism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism.

    However, since Leof briefly outlined what seems to be a wholly other point of view of history, there is obvious disagreement. I would say that he is identifying with the North and not with the West. Furthermore, I'd say that the North excludes the southern Germans that are very rooted in Catholicism.

    Historically, that means that the West in the sense of Western Christianism is also the Germanic West, whereas someone identifying with Germanic and the North, as opposed to Western Christianism or as opposed to Christianism as a whole, is schismatically Germanicist.

    I don't think it divides us so much as there are disagreements and possibly some misunderstandings. I don't have my pride in being Western (except in a racial sense, but that's rather irrelevant, since I don't believe that race alone makes culture and pride), nor in being Northern. I'm a West Geatish Swede.

    Today, religious aspects of ethnicity are in disintegration, and quite often for a good reason people are converting to more traditional Christian denominations. So the question is, exactly what is the point of identifying with the West or with the North? I think that our ethnicities are the better vehicles of patriotism.
    Let me clarify a bit. In the spirit of this being a Germanic preservation forum I was primarly speaking about the Germanic west being under attack. With that said I see the large sweeping scope known as the west under attack from the same threats.

    As for what you spoke about identifying with your particular tribe or province, I completely agree with that. That is the purest form of group identity in regards to a community and as oppose to the oppressive and ambiguous identity as a large encompassing nation.

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