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Thread: The Nordic Myth

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    The Nordic Myth

    The Nordic Myth
    (by OneEnglishNorman and Amorsite)

    It is recommended that before this thread you read Racial Composition of the British Isles. Definitions of anthropological terms such as Nordic or Upper Paleolithic can be viewed here.


    In the days of Deniker and Ripley in the 19th century, Physical Anthropologists began by dividing European Caucasoids into three main categories: Nordic, Alpine and Mediterranean. The Nordic race was supposedly tall, blonde and slender. Large and narrow headed. The populations of the North were allegedly of this race in large part. Alpines were commoner in Central Europe, and were characterised by brunette pigmentation and rounder features. Finally the Mediterraneans were a gracile race of Southern Europe, darker than the Alpine and smaller than the Nordic in body build.

    With the 20th century and the raise of modern European Nationalism came the politicisation of Physical Anthropology and the development of “Nordicism”. Propagandists idealised the Nordic type and credited it as the driving force in the development of European societies; the Nordic race was also supposedly critical to the advance of ancient civilisations located far from Northern Europe. The greatest scientists, artists, monarchs and military leaders all allegedly shared the common denominator of Nordic blood. Nordic was the element which explained the apparent superiority of the Anglo-Saxon and Northern European world in general. The Nordic race was said to be important if not predominant in Northern Europe and the Germanic countries, and the type of the "true" Northern Europeans. This race was at the centre stage of European and World history. Nazis held Nordic as the most desirable element and demanded Nordicism be taught in schools. After the tumultuous war years, leftists attempted to discredit Physical Anthropology by associating it with Nordicism and Nationalism in the public imagination.

    What should have been asked in the first place is the very simple question of: “are most Northern Europeans really Nordic?” Does this Nordic type account for the common man’s morphological make-up in Northern Europe? If not, will pursuing an ideal type to which he and his ancestors do not belong help him learn more about himself or gain interest in Physical Anthropology as a science? It was none other than Nordicist and race researcher Hans Guenther who spoke of an important element in the population of Northern Germany he called “Faelisch”, which was non-Nordic and Cro-Magnon like in race. Carleton Coon would take this further with his “Bruenn” and “Borreby” types. It was Coon who wrote in 1939, that a Scandinavian country, Denmark, as well as Germany, were substantially non-Nordic in race.

    Most researchers and ideologists concurred however that Sweden was the centre of this Nordic race, and that its predominance in this country was not open to doubt. Yet many years later, morphological research has progressed. Today anthropologists can understand types and Upper Paleolithic (UP) variation better and should not feel a need to “see” Nordics where they do not exist. For every person the question should be posed: “what is Nordic about this person?”.

    In 1950 Coon wrote, “few populations in Europe or elsewhere can be called Nordic in the strict sense. Most which other authors have called Nordic falls in our Northwestern European category”. This “Northwest European” category derives according to him from a “Paleolithic survival” and comprehends “most of Scandinavia” and “much of the British Isles”. Our contention is that in no country in the world does the Nordic type predominate. The populations of Northern Europe consist mostly of native Upper Paleolithic types.

    Our study will firstly explore if Nordic examples given by proponents of Nordic predominance actually belong to other types. Secondly this study will examine the alleged centre of Nordic concentration, Sweden, with a number of population samples.


    Our examples of;

    Nordics/Predominantly Nordics (Corded-like Mediterraneans)


    Max von Sydow


    Russian man


    James Cromwell


    Peter Cushing


    Christian Luscher



    UPs/Predominantly UPs (UP types)

    Jeremy Clarkson


    Goran Persson


    Alexander Litvinenko


    Brad Pitt


    Scandinavian man




    Exploring other examples of Nordics or partially Nordic types

    Examples from the Society for Nordish Physical Anthropology (SNPA)


    Hallstatt Nordids

    1- Max von Sydow: agreed, a good representative.

    2- Ulrika Jonsson: Nordic is not predominant in her. Overall her big mouth, squarish face and broader robust features are more typical of a Scandinavian sub-variant of Phalian. Nordic influence is possible, but she is no example which could serve as an exemplar of the type.


    3- Rintje Ritsma: predominantly Nordic.

    4- Annett Wichmann: predominantly Nordic. Cheekbones show possible Phalian and/or East Baltic admix.



    East Nordids


    1- Pavel Kashin: largely Baltic and not Nordic. Hair texture and facial features are UP.


    2- Elena Dementieva: predominantly Nordic albeit with possible East Baltic admix.


    3- Alexander Godunov: largely an Eastern Upper Paleolithic type. Has overall massive and robust features. Nordic is likely involved, but is not the predominant element.


    4- Maria Sharapova: East Baltic, nothing Nordic about her at all.



    Tronder

    1-Liv Ullman: nothing is Nordic about her, her broad lips and robust features indicate a Scandinavian sub-variant of Phalian.


    2- Agnar Mykle: squarish robust face indicates Upper Paleolithic predominance. Nordic, if involved, is not major.


    3- Caroline Winberg: largely a photogenic Phalian as her broad lips, full cheeks and flat face indicate.



    Anglo-Saxon

    A type problematic by itself, with no example ever presented by the anthropologist who coined it (Carleton Coon). A stable blend combining Megalithic, Nordic, Corded, Bruenn and Borreby is not believable. It makes more sense that the Anglo-Saxons brought varied types from the continent (Borreby, Phalian, Corded).

    1- Alec Guinness: his morphological type is essentially British and not continental. He is largely Bruenn with some Nordic or Keltic Nordic admixture more visible in the nose.


    2- Julie Andrews: largely a British UP (Bruenn) with possible Nordic admix in the face structure.


    3- Michael Caine: mostly Bruenn with some possible Dinaric or Keltic Nordic influence in his nose.


    4-Diane Sawyer: mostly Bruenn.



    Keltic Nordid

    1- David Niven: has some similarity with Alec Guinness. Broadish robust face. Largely Bruenn.


    2- Emma Thompson: generalized Bruenn (cheeks, broadish face) with minor Keltic Nordic admixture in the nose.


    3-Edward Norton: predominantly Keltic Nordic.

    4-Kevin Costner: amerindian mixed.



    Sub-Nordid

    1- Calista Flockhart: nothing Nordic about her. Largely an UP type with possible alteration by other element.


    2- Brigitte Bardot: Alpine/UP. Nothing Nordic about her.


    3-Christopher Lambert: UP (reduced/altered by Alpine) with possible Mediterranean or Nordic alteration.


    4-Julie Delphie: mostly a French UP type.



    North-Atlantid

    Another problematic type since no examples were ever presented by Lundman. Alleged examples are covered here.



    Examples from Agrippa’s racial taxonomy thread


    Skandonordid

    1- Christian Olsson: predominantly Nordic but with UP influence, has some similarity with UP Swedish politician Eva Johnsson. UP is also visible in the nostrils.


    2-Unknown: predominantly Nordic.

    3-Paul Hackett: predominantly Nordic.

    4-Sonya Kraus: predominantly Phalian (evident in the full cheeks, big mouth, jaw and facial shape) with possible Dinaric influence (nose).


    5- Joni Markkula: predominantly Nordic but zygomatics and cheeks region show Eastern influence.



    Keltic Nordid

    1- J.R.R. Tolkien: predominantly Keltic Nordic.

    2- Francky Dury: big face with heavy skeletal structure together with his cleft chin indicate UP influence.


    3- Bart Goor: a dinaricised Mediterranean type, perhaps Bell Beaker derived, (in any case not Nordic or Keltic Nordic), with possible UP influence.


    4-“Hanka”: nothing Keltic Nordic (or Nordic) about her.


    5-“Alena”: nothing Keltic Nordic (or Nordic) about her either. Looks rather like a central European Alpine/Dinaric.



    Ostnordid

    1- Elena Dementieva: covered above.

    2- Alexander Godunov: covered above.

    3- “Lyudmila”: hair form and robustness hint to UP influence.


    4-“Yana”: predominantly UP with possible Nordic admix.


    5-“Zuzana”: predominantly Nordic.


    Nordatlantid

    Problematic category since no examples were ever presented by Lundman. Alleged examples are covered here.


    William Ripley

    Most of his Teutonic types are either UP or UP mixed.



    Hans Guenther


    Many of his “Nordics” are in reality predominantly UP.



    Egon Von Eickstedt

    Uses “Nordisch” in 1934 as a bag term including Mongoliform and UP individuals (Dalo-Nordic and Fennonordic).



    Bertil Lundman

    Includes in his Nordras individuals who are predominantly or fully UP.




    Examining the Swedish population

    As samples of the Swedish population, 300 members from the Riksdag (Swedish Parliament) have been selected together with squad members of the national soccer team.

    The population sample has been sorted into 5 categories. This will help to simplify the study and maintain focus on the Nordic / UP proportions.

    The categories are the following:

    Predominantly Upper Paleolithic individuals; Predominantly Upper Palelolithics with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix; Bell Beakers or dinariform influenced individuals; Predominantly Nordic individuals; Predominantly Nordics with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix

    Swedish national football team squad
    1) Predominantly Upper Paleolithic individuals




    2) Predominantly Upper Paleolithics with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix


    3) Predominantly Nordic individual



    4) Predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix





    Members of the Swedish Parliament
    1) Predominantly Upper Paleolithic individuals




    2) Predominantly Upper Paleolithics with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix



    3) Bell Beakers or dinariform influenced individuals




    4) Predominantly Nordic individuals





    5) Predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix





    Statistics


    Out of 14 football squad members:
    • 7 or 50% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic
    • 5 or 35.71% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    • 1 or 7.14% is predominantly Nordic
    • 1 or 7.14% is predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    Out of 300 Parliament members:
    • 244 or 81.33% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic
    • 44 or 14.66% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    • 7 or 2.33% are predominantly Nordic
    • 4 or 1.33% are predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    Conclusion

    The “Nordic inflation” takes place by assuming as Nordic or partly Nordic individuals who are not such at all: following a tradition of Nordicist influence in Anthropology and lack of research in the UP spectrum, it is “necessary” for some to see Nordic predominance in Northern Europe and to push Nordics centre stage in European population distribution. Yet with careful observation, going beyond “impression”, there is found no morphological linkage between these so-called Nordics.

    It is noted that the populations of Northern Europe are indeed unique in many ways, but this is largely because of the variability within UP types rather than a discrepancy in the distribution of Nordics. It is important that this uniqueness be recognised. A Nordicist approach takes Anthropology away from the common man and provides him with standards and ideals but no answers. Misidentifying Nordics with Northern UP types does not make them any more numerous and can only damage the goal that so-called Nordicists pursue.

    Nordics are not predominant in Sweden or Northern Europe and in most areas constitute but a peripheral population element. The predominant types in all Northern European countries are Upper Paleolithic. The Nordic Myth was a combination of the inaccuracies inherent to every new science, wishful thinking, classifications on prejudice and impression, political agendas and an impossible simplification of the European racial situation.

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    It always made sense to me that the basis of the population was UP. The von Sydow types are rare.

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    Hmm re-director is screwing up the links. Anyway, I'll link to the British Isles & North-Atlantids threads here:

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3848 for British thread

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4646 to see review of North-Altantid examples

    Amorsite is here for definitions of terms

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    I agree with some of it, but not all of it. You usually ignore my questions with no explanation. I guess it means you agree with me when you do.

    I must ask what in the world is East Baltic about Elena Dementieva?





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    We stated "possible". It's debatable but may be there in the cheeks.


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    I think she can be compared to one of Coon's lapps, the morphology of the cheeks is similar. She is mostly Nordic, but altered.

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    Please refer this subject to the thread: Dream Debate..., which I set up for this purpose in the Taxonomy (Typology) section.

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    The Staff has decided to reopen this thread. The Staff has also decided to move it to Anthropological Taxonomy where such typological topics are discussed. Since OEN and Ricky Roma have framed this "debate" and object to my doing so, my thread, Dream Debate.., will be closed.

    All Typological Anthropology will be discussed in the "Taxonomy" Section from now on. If you are confused about what Typological Anthropology is, please google it. Briefly, any discussion of European sub-races will probably qualify as typological. If unsure, post it here. If there is a discussion of sub-race which is non-typological, it can be moved. Discussion of Genetics, genetic markers, population genetics, microbiology or biochemistry of humans, usually fall outside Typological Anthropology. They have a place either in Physical Anthropology or their appropriate sub-section elsewhere. Discussion of those topics as they relate to Typological Anthropology can be entered here.

    All discussion of Bruenn vs. Nordics will remain in this thread. Mention of it outside this thread will result in that post's deletion. If spin offs of this topic become an agenda, they will get the same restrictive treatment, immediately and without discussion.

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    Well, it's pretty obvious that OEN and Ricky Roma are trolling with this nonsense. For example, they post pics of Ulrika Jonnson with an exaggerated smile in the hopes of making her look more robust. Any classifier worth their salt knows that such pics are useless for the purpose. They continually talk about people looking "British" rather than "continental", by which they intend to infer that Nordics are alien to the Isles. This flies in the face of what we know from the skeletal material.

    Alec Guinness: his morphological type is essentially British
    Yes, Anglo-Saxon. He's not nearly robust enough to be considered predominantly UP by a serious classifier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    Anglo-Saxon

    A type problematic by itself, with no example ever presented by the anthropologist who coined it (Carleton Coon).
    Well since you keep stating this, despite not being able to answer me whenever i question you, i guess i'll have to keep posting the evidence that contradicts this fantasy.

    Carleton Coon's Gallery of Anglo-Saxons:






    http://www.snpa.nordish.net/troeplate33.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    Statistics


    Out of 14 football squad members:
    • 7 or 50% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic
    • 5 or 35.71% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    • 1 or 7.14% is predominantly Nordic
    • 1 or 7.14% is predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    Out of 300 Parliament members:
    • 244 or 81.33% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic
    • 44 or 14.66% are predominantly Upper Paleolithic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    • 7 or 2.33% are predominantly Nordic
    • 4 or 1.33% are predominantly Nordic with probable Eastern/mongoliform admix
    Conclusion
    Brilliant. So let me get this right. You get to cherry pick whatever selection of Swedes you choose, then you personally decide which ones are Bruenn and which ones aren't. And then you post this up in a statistical format and treat it as if it is objective and conclusive evidence??

    eyes:

    The fact that you actually take yourself so seriously over this stuff makes it even funnier.
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