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Thread: Your Opinion on Protestantism?

  1. #1
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    Question Your Opinion on Protestantism?

    I would appreciate a discussion on protestant Christianity, because I'd like to know what it's like elsewhere, and I'd like to share what it's like here. I was inspired by Siebenbürgerin to issue a new thread on it. My answer to her contains a brief account on my personal detachment from protestantism, but I'd like to stress that I didn't post to provoke bad feelings, or to pursue an agenda. I hope it's not perceived that way, and I also hope that we can have this discussion without attributing the problems within Lutheranism to a Swedish character or something as cooky as that. If you have any questions about the situation in Sweden, just go on and ask.


    Quote Originally Posted by Siebenbürgerin View Post
    I didn't say Luthernism is Germanic. But that Lutheranism is not alien to Germanics, especially not to my People, the Transylvanian Saxons. If Someone writes about Zen, of course Zen doesn't become Germanic Tradition. However, if Someone makes an Inovation reformed from Zen and it is practiced by many Germanics overtime, it will not be alien to them. Do you understand what I'm trying to mean? Luther didn't just write about Christianity, he was a Reformer. The Religion is named after him. By the way, white and Germanic aren't the same thing.
    But the religion is still Christianity though?

    Looking back on what happened to Christianity in Sweden during Lutheran Orthodoxy, it is almost impossible to deny that the disgraceful state of the so called Church of Sweden was made possible due to Lutheranism. The church became subjected to the state, and that paved the way for corruption. I doubt that you would consider the Church of Sweden a Lutheran church, although in fact it is Lutheran. But my point is about corruption. And it has gone very far. I'll quote myself:

    The church I was baptised in, the horrible "Church of Sweden", has gone through a lot of changes in the 20th century, chiefly under social democratic rule it has now become a church that promotes sodomy, multicult and all kinds of erroneous teachings.
    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...1&postcount=19

    This is very upsetting. I don't consider the Church of Sweden to be a Christian church, and I will not join another Lutheran denomination, I'm afraid.

    Swedish Lutheranism was also split up into a wide variety of sectarian movements already during the 18th and 19th centuries, and this happened as a result of movements that originated outside Sweden, so it didn't spread from here initially. But since Lutheranism wasn't stabilized here until some time during the 17th century, we can say that the dissolution of it came on very quickly.

    I'm just sharing. I don't presume it's the same in Siebenbürgen, except according to wikipedia, sectarian movements are a fact there as well.

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siebenb%C3%BCrgen#Religion
    God expects but one thing of you,
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    and let God be God in you.

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    This progressive shift in Protestant denominations seems universal. Most in Canada have become gathering points for homosexuals, promoters of promiscuous sexual activity, and general breeding grounds for all sorts of other immoral and un-Christian activities. My father and mother are Church of England (Anglican) and Presbyterian respectively, but I've yet to attend a service at either church without encountering sodomites, drug users, or immigrants looking for free handouts. This also seems to be the case with most of the other Reformed faiths. Although, on the contrary, I've observed the most conservative and traditional of the Protestant Churches, at least as far as Canada is concerned, tends to be the Lutherans, as well as the Baptists and Dutch Reformed. They invariably opt to reject homosexual unions and clergy, and generally have tight-knit, Germanic congregations. Canada is not an ideal comparison to Sweden, however, since the largest single religion is Roman Catholicism and we lack an effective state Church like that which is seen in Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneTrueLoyalist View Post
    This progressive shift in Protestant denominations seems universal. Most in Canada have become gathering points for homosexuals, promoters of promiscuous sexual activity, and general breeding grounds for all sorts of other immoral and un-Christian activities. My father and mother are Church of England (Anglican) and Presbyterian respectively, but I've yet to attend a service at either church without encountering sodomites, drug users, or immigrants looking for free handouts. This also seems to be the case with most of the other Reformed faiths.
    I'm very sad to hear it. I had a hunch that this is a rather, as you say, universal tendency.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneTrueLoyalist View Post
    Although, on the contrary, I've observed the most conservative and traditional of the Protestant Churches, at least as far as Canada is concerned, tends to be the Lutherans, as well as the Baptists and Dutch Reformed. They invariably opt to reject homosexual unions and clergy, and generally have tight-knit, Germanic congregations. Canada is not an ideal comparison to Sweden, however, since the largest single religion is Roman Catholicism and we lack an effective state Church like that which is seen in Sweden.
    The thread is about protestantism and your post is straight to the point.

    The situation you describe is actually quite similar in terms of its dynamic, although clearly, Catholicism is a minority faith here. I believe she is recruting new membership chiefly from European immigrants and from disillusioned protestants. The same goes for the Orthodox church as well. As for the state church, it is losing members en masse, which is quite radical given that people actually have to make a call to them to do so. In addition, they no longer have the right to incorporate the newborn as members by default.

    I have heard of one conservative Lutheran denomination, but I also know it is quite tiny.

    Then there are the Baptists, the Pentecostals and other free churches that gained ground as Lutheran unity dissolved. The Baptists are quite often very predominantly swedish by membership, but I have also seen how some of them do their best to change that, by working very actively in the ghettos. Then there is also another thing, that I see as a problem with these, namely, that they support zionist expansion in the Middle East, and a general neocon agenda.
    God expects but one thing of you,
    and that is that you should come out of yourself in so far as you are a created being made
    and let God be God in you.

    Meister Eckhart


    Do U believe in God? | Svensk förskola | Vem äger media? | CA ban on mom & dad | Birth control causes breast cancer

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    A brief history of protestantism in Sweden

    A brief history of protestantism in Sweden

    1. Beginnings: The subordination of the church to the King

    The change for Lutheranism was a slow process. During the 16th century, the King acquired the power to confiscate church property. Later in the same century, King Johan III and his successor, his son with Katerina Jagelonica, Sigismund, who had become King of Poland and then became King of Sweden also, tended toward reformed Catholicism. In the same time, the Augsburgian confession, Confessio Augustana, a Lutheran document, was accepted by Uppsala church meeting as the official teaching in 1593. Sigismund's successor Karl IX, in his turn, was attracted by Calvinism, causing another setback for Lutheranism. So it was not until the 17th century that the church was dominated by Lutheran orthodoxy, and that was also the time when the ties to the state became even stronger.


    2. Crisis, split up of Lutheran unity and freedom of religion

    During the 18th and 19th centuries, the church was challenged by new movements from outside. First came pietism, which, if I'm correctly informed, was originally a movement within Methodism. Second came what we know in Sweden as "herrnhutism" which is a word formed from "Herrn Hus" (Mister Hus), the founder of the Moravian Church. So it was the Moravian Church that came to have influence in Sweden. There were conflicts that led to a split up of Lutheran unity, and a number of "free churches" came into existence. Freedom of religion was instated to a limited degree, and was initially reserved for foreigners under King Gustav III. From 1860 onwards it allowed also for Swedes and Geats to be members of a new denomination.

    source: Svenska kyrkan - Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin

    ----------------------------------------------


    3. The "National" Church

    The concept of national church came to Sweden from Germany in the beginning of the 20th century, but it was not until Einar Billing, bishop in Västerås 1920-1939, put stress on it, that things began to get serious. According to Billing, every nation had its own signum from God. This movement can be understood in the context of split up of Lutheran unity just mentioned. Mass attendance was no longer mandatory, and people didn't attend in such great numbers anymore. The church was no longer what it had been, and Billing wanted to revive it with a collectivist-nationalist turn, although it was a very fatal idea.

    The Social Democrat Worker's Party (SAP, Socialdemokratiska Arbetarpartiet) came to power in 1933, and the stance of the party on religious freedom changed markedly after that. Arthur Engberg of SAP was now ecclesiastic minister. He was a cultural radical who, in the 1910's, had said that there could be no greater crime against the deepest and the best of a human soul than a state religion. But now that the SAP had come to power it was said that, "yes, the state church shall be abolished, but in another time".

    source: En fri kyrka del 2 Av Maciej Zaremba 991203

    --------------------------------


    4. A case of politisation

    The church had been subject to the whims of political power ever since protestantism started, and now the SAP turned it into a policy bureau of theirs.

    A good example of how political power has changed the church is the question of female clergy. Regardless of the question itself, what I want to draw attention to is the way that the state literally commanded the church:

    In the year 1951, all professors and docents, with one exception only, said that an order of female priests would be at odds with the teachings of the Bible. This the so called exegesis declaration was in part a protest against the investigation commissioned by the state on female priests; the latter which was seen as partial.

    In the year 1957 a church meeting was held in all traditional order, at which the question of ordaining women as priests came up. The meeting discarded the proposal. The government then reminded the church that its representatives were also employees of the state, and that no discrimination on gender could be allowed. In the spring of 1958 therefore, the parliament legislated on the issue, and forced the church to ordain women.


    translated from: Ämbetsfrågan i Svenska kyrkan - Wikipedia, den fria encyklopedin

    The church was being exploited by the state to promote feminism. The demands of calling and competence were also put out of play, since the church had no other choice than to appoint female priests, and the women who applied were by default fans of the political regime. If the church refused to satisfy the state, it was breaking the law. There have been parrishes where people didn't want to accept a woman as their priest in very recent times, just a few years ago, but the state has decided what the church must do. This is just one instance of direct politisation, so I think you get the picture. Liberal priests are also being relocated from the cities to the rural areas to target traditionalism.

    -------------------------------


    5. A democratic church

    In 1961, Kjell-Olof Feldt of the SAP - who later became minister of finance - said that anyone who wants to marginalise Christianity should guard the state church.

    With the millenium shift, the church was in official terms "separated from the state" but that is just a cover up. Simultaneously, the parliament legislated that the Church of Sweden must be "evangelic-lutheran, open, democratic, national and a church for the people". The electorate is not made up of the members, but is the same as the electorate as a whole in Sweden, regardless of membership and religious inclination.

    source: En fri kyrka del 2 Av Maciej Zaremba 991203

    ----------------------------------


    6. Final remarks and Conclusion

    The Church of Sweden is not separated from the state, but completely enslaved by it. I think it's just a question of time before all the clergy are forced to sanction the marriages of homosexuals in the name of God. At the same time, the state also controls what religious societies can be registered. Registered religious societies can receive massive funding, and the great lot of it goes to the Church of Sweden.

    With protestantism, the Lutheran church of Sweden was subordinated to political power in general.
    A brief history of protestantism in Sweden
    God expects but one thing of you,
    and that is that you should come out of yourself in so far as you are a created being made
    and let God be God in you.

    Meister Eckhart


    Do U believe in God? | Svensk förskola | Vem äger media? | CA ban on mom & dad | Birth control causes breast cancer

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
    This progressive shift in Protestant denominations seems universal. Most in Canada have become gathering points for homosexuals, promoters of promiscuous sexual activity, and general breeding grounds for all sorts of other immoral and un-Christian activities.
    An example would be the Mennonites; those that have "progressed" beyond the horse and buggy are now finding their church being infiltrated by gay Mennonites (google: "Pink Menno").

    It's getting to the point where people who truly want to practice the Christian faith will have to do it in secret again.

    I would, however, not consider these alternative churches as Protestant, though. They should be classified as either cults or heretical.

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