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Thread: Are American/Canadian/Australian, Etc. Ethnicities?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Soten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haereticus View Post
    Interestingly the Brazilian population described as 'white' is 53.7%

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../print/br.html
    I see someone has been neglecting their "Whiteness" studies.

    The category "White" is incredibly reliant upon the society in which the term is being used. In Brazil, any Afro-Amero-Euro-Brazilian with a light pigment may be considered "White". In Haiti, any African with the slightest bit of European ancestry is called "White", usually in a derogatory manner, which is a complete reversal of the US one-drop rule.

    "White" is a term that may have served its purpose at one point but that needs to be done away with. It is much more harmful to us nowadays than beneficial. For proof, check out the US census' official categories for "White" ancestry...North Africans, Iranians, Jews, Greeks, Italians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc etc.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Haereticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    Mestizo means "mixed race", specifically European and Amerindian mix. I see no problem there.

    Mexicans have certainly taken on the qualifications of a distinct ethnicity in my book. No wonder people have a hard time swallowing American, Canadian, or Quebecois as ethnicities. I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of Europeans just don't get it. Maybe they don't think that ethnicities that existed before can ever take on a new identity.
    I don't see how you can simply 'invent' a new ethnicity. If you are ethnically of mixed origin you are 'mixed race'. You can certainly define a new nationality, such as 'American' or 'Aztlanian'. I'm assuming you're ethnically European, distinctly different from other 'Americans' who might, for example, be ethnically African, Oriental etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I see someone has been neglecting their "Whiteness" studies.

    The category "White" is incredibly reliant upon the society in which the term is being used. In Brazil, any Afro-Amero-Euro-Brazilian with a light pigment may be considered "White". In Haiti, any African with the slightest bit of European ancestry is called "White", usually in a derogatory manner, which is a complete reversal of the US one-drop rule.
    Yes, as I said "interestingly"

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    ..."White" is a term that may have served its purpose at one point but that needs to be done away with. It is much more harmful to us nowadays than beneficial. For proof, check out the US census' official categories for "White" ancestry...North Africans, Iranians, Jews, Greeks, Italians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc etc.
    I have been to Italy and Greece and know some Italians. As far as I and they are concerned they are white.


    These people are White Europeans, not blacks.

    Last edited by Haereticus; Saturday, January 10th, 2009 at 03:32 AM. Reason: combined posts
    “It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words”

  3. #43
    Senior Member Aemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I've never known anyone to say that "Mexican" could not be an ethnicity.
    Me neither. Though it might be difficult to determine a difference between ethnicity and culture in this example. Dunno.


    Are the Quebecois French or are they Quebecois? Are they both? If so, is Quebecois only a "nationality" so to speak?
    Good questions. The 'Quebecois' are never 'French'; they are Canadian. They aren't French nationals any more than Americans are. They are both French Canadians but they are never French (unless you denote by this term their ethnic tongue which is French). Quebecois is foremost a culture though one which is striving to become a nationality I'd say. Nationally speaking they are Canadian.


    Can a Pakistani be Quebecois if he lives in Quebec?
    What's fun about this question is that the English language actually provides us with 2 designations that do have slight yet very different meanings: Quebecois and Quebecker. Those who are considered French Canadian and by that I mean old-stock and who identify with the culture and history and ancestry of the French who settled the land are considered Quebecois. A Quebecois can live in or outside of Quebec. A Quebecker though is one who lives in Quebec. Here there is no cultural or ethnic designation but just a designation as to place of residence...a Quebecker lives in Quebec as opposed to an Ontarian, like me let's say, lives in Ontario. So yes a new Canadian can call himself a Quebecker but not a Quebecois.

    Now here's the really fun part: en français, we don't have a distinction between Quebecker and Quebecois...un Quebecois est un Quebecois. This is why things get a bit dicey in Quebec with francophones of other ethnicities, but in the end they are not "French Canadian" and nor are they "Quebecois". I wouldn't even consider a recent francophone immigrant of French or Swiss-French extraction to be a 'French Canadian' and much less a Quebecois, regardless of their residence in the province of Quebec. They are francophone Canadian nationals if you will. But culturally and ethnically, they are not and never will be French Canadians and much less Quebecois.


    Funny how Canadien was an option for ancestry or ethnicity as well...
    You have to undersatnd that the term "canadien" is still very much used among the older French Canadians as a term to denote French Canadians only. All others were known as 'les anglais'. So for many of the old folks whose culture and language has only ever been French (and believe me there are some around), they consider themselves as the 'true' Canadians here while all others, the English, the Irish, the Scots, are considered as les anglais. It harkens back of course to the fact that the French were the first to colonise this part of North America and then they themselves were conquered by the English. Old rivalries and anymosities run deep...even over the centuries dontcha know.

    Frith...la canadienne hors Québec (Aemma)

  4. #44
    Senior Member Soten's Avatar
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    OK, I shall try to respond to both previous posts. However, the ale may make it less than perfectly coherent. Here goes...

    Firstly, if we mean "White" to mean European, then let's just say European. It sounds better, because it includes a bit of a notion of culture. "White" sounds like it is solely physical-based, like Caucasian. Caucasian, of course, can be said to designate many peoples who you or I may not consider "White".

    And I would rather not be lumped wholesale in a category with Italians or Greeks, etc. I know that they are European. In so far as we are all European, Germanics, Celtics, Latins, then yes we are one group. But I would prefer to be more...discriminating?

    Secondly, no one is "inventing" anything. The truth of the matter is that the Mexicans consider themselves an ethnic group and have for quite some time. It matters very little what you or I say about it. What does matter is that there is a group consensus among Mexicans that they form a unique group of people with a shared heritage, culture, and bloodline. AKA an ethnic group.

    Aemma (and probably Haereticus too), as for me I feel more connection to colonial America, which is no wonder seeing as how the bulk of my family was instrumental in its history. They were Europeans, yes. English, Dutch, Scotch-Irish, what have you. But their history did not run the same course as did the histories of those in Britain or the Netherlands. Neither is my history the same as a Dutchman or Englishman's who lives today, obviously. The Quebecois seem fairly comfortable in their assertion of creating a "New World" ethnicity as do the Afrikaners feel comfortable with their identity. I understand that the common Englishman and I share blood and history as I am sure that the Quebecois understand that they and today's Frenchmen share blood and history up until around 1600. But the Quebecois have grown attached to their (native) land, Quebec, and so have I grown fond of this area.

    I'm not sure what you would rather call that. This movement from Northern Europe was a big change. It doesn't make us non-European, we carried European blood and culture to the ends of the earth, so to speak. But we certainly haven't stayed just the same for it all. We have new identities. Does it make the Quebecois not French...no, but certainly something else must be said to describe them. You couldn't just leave it at "French". And the same goes for Old Stock Americans, Canadians, Australians (possibly less so, because of the shorter time period), and Afrikaners.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Haereticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    OK, I shall try to respond to both previous posts. However, the ale may make it less than perfectly coherent.
    Despite the ale perfectly eloquent and coherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    ... if we mean "White" to mean European, then let's just say European. It sounds better, because it includes a bit of a notion of culture.
    "bit of a notion"? Europeans do share a history and culture, even though much of that history has been different nationalities knocking the **** out of each other. There is certainly a shared European heritage. Of course within Europe there are distinct regional cultures maintained, to some extent, by language. The breakdown of intra-European diversity is lamentable, but not as tragic as the wholesale destruction caused by the, mainly, African and Islamic infestation, but also by creeping 'Americanisation' inflicted by the 'American' (correct me if I'm wrong) Jewish influenced media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I would rather not be lumped wholesale in a category with Italians or Greeks, etc. I know that they are European. In so far as we are all European, Germanics, Celtics, Latins, then yes we are one group. But I would prefer to be more...discriminating?
    Quite understandably, so would I. I'd describe myself as culturally British and ethnically European. My ancestry being, as far as I have ascertained, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Germanic. My wife has some Italian ancestry as, consequently, do my children. I would not be ashamed of some Italian heritage. Actually I don't really consider 'Italian' an ethnic group. Italy is a nation, and a new nation at that. However, the peoples of that part of the world did evolve a distinct culture and created long lasting civilisation. It might be, in some respects, inferior to northern European culture, but you could live a safe and civilised existence. Quite unlike Africa I could have absolutely no pride if I were unfortunate enough to have any African or negroid ancestry.

    I'm told, rightly or wrongly, we all originated from Africa. Well, we all originated from the sea, but I don't consider myself to have much in common with a jellyfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    The truth of the matter is that the Mexicans consider themselves an ethnic group and have for quite some time. It matters very little what you or I say about it. What does matter is that there is a group consensus among Mexicans that they form a unique group of people with a shared heritage, culture, and bloodline. AKA an ethnic group.
    They can consider themselves a separate species for all I care, the fact is they're not.

    I can sympathise more with the Afrikaner who is clearly and identifiably distinctly different to the various mixed up Africans who surround him, with a different language, history, culture and ethnicity. Ethnic 'Dutch' as opposed to ethnic 'English'. However, the Afrikaner, like the American is a colonist, not an ethnic group.

    It irks me to hear Americans, often those of dubious ethnic origin, say "We fought the British". More often than not the ancestors of these people arrived on the continent very recently. The American fight for independence was a conflict between British authorities and British colonists. Other nationalities were peripheral.

    Maybe it's just a question of semantics, the dictionary definition of 'ethnicity' I found is:
    The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
    By that definition one could only accept 'American' as an ethnic definition if you were to exclude a significant population of those who would call themselves 'American'. That significant population, by current trends, will be the majority of those living in the United States within a couple of generations. I'm not saying that smugly, Britain, the motherland of the original white Americans is facing a similar fate, albeit a few generations later.

    From my perspective you are culturally American but ethnically European. That may sound vague, but I'd describe myself similarly culturally British and ethnically European.
    “It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words”

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haereticus View Post
    I don't see how you can simply 'invent' a new ethnicity. If you are ethnically of mixed origin you are 'mixed race'. You can certainly define a new nationality, such as 'American' or 'Aztlanian'. I'm assuming you're ethnically European, distinctly different from other 'Americans' who might, for example, be ethnically African, Oriental etc.



    Yes, as I said "interestingly"



    I have been to Italy and Greece and know some Italians. As far as I and they are concerned they are white.


    These people are White Europeans, not blacks.



    LOL White...
    Almost all those people in that photograph are Arabs! The only ones I would tolerate would be the man and woman in front.
    I've been to Italy and that picture perfectly summarizes it. You get a small minority that looks European and the rest looks Semitic, Somalid and Asian minor; or a cross of all three.


    And this White American bullshit is ridicilous. White and Black are both social concepts. Let me tell you something, Heniz, I am not a ''White American'', there is no friggin Punjab, Italian or Russian-Mongol in me. And I don't plan to add any to the family.



    I don't like being called mixed. All my Great Great Grandparents were Nordoid or Cromagnoid. And to boot they all came from Western Nations/Empires. I'm less "mixed" than the majority of your old Monarchs such as Franz Karl (who had two Sicilian Great Grandparents). Hell even your German Kaiser Wilhelm has more Slavic blood than I do. I laugh my ass off when someone insinuates that I'm mixed because I was born in the United States.


    White American is a such a bad term. I have nothing in common with Italian Americans, the majority of whom tan like Arabs, gel their hair, hit the techno clubs and are 5''6 degenerate city rats.
    So what if I like eating pizza? That doesn't mean I should tolerate Italians (who, like the Polish and Russian Jews, have been converging on the states like mad) and I can damn well make my own pizza, thank you very much.
    Last edited by Siebenbürgerin; Monday, January 12th, 2009 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Please cut down on the cursing.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Telluride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soten View Post
    I've never known anyone to say that "Mexican" could not be an ethnicity.
    What would an ethnic Mexican be? A white Spaniard? An American Indian? The mixture of the two that many Mexicans are?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Haereticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatest View Post
    LOL White...
    Almost all those people in that photograph are Arabs! The only ones I would tolerate would be the man and woman in front.
    I've been to Italy and that picture perfectly summarizes it. You get a small minority that looks European and the rest looks Semitic, Somalid and Asian minor; or a cross of all three.
    Arabs? I wouldn't say so. You may be right about the lack of ethnic homogeneity in Italy. There is certainly truth in that. Italy, as a nation is a very recent grouping of territories which, because of the nature and history of the Roman empire was an amalgamation of cultures. However, I think the descendants of those Romans are not very happy about the new immigrants:



    Let me tell you something, Heniz, I am not a ''White American'', there is no friggin Punjab, Italian or Russian-Mongol in me. And I don't plan to add any to the family.
    Firstly, Who is 'Heniz'?

    I don't like being called mixed.
    I bet you don't.

    All my Great Great Grandparents were Nordoid or Cromagnoid. And to boot they all came from Western Nations/Empires. I'm less "mixed" than the majority of your old Monarchs such as Franz Karl (who had two Sicilian Great Grandparents). Hell even your German Kaiser Wilhelm has more Slavic blood than I do. I laugh my ass off when someone insinuates that I'm mixed because I was born in the United States.
    I'm less mixed too However, I'm hurt that you question the ethic origins of my monarch. I would never presume to question the lineage or integrity of your head of state, the duly elected President of your great nation. Of whom, I'm sure you're rightly proud. Come to think of it, not many of your past Presidents have looked particularly Germanic. Actually, to be honest as an anti-monarchist I don't give a t*ss about the lineage of European, or any other, monarchies.

    Sorry to have to break this to you, but this is what Europe sees as a 'typical' group of 'ordinary Americans'.

    I imagine the 2009 version of this photograph would be more 'colourful'.

    A European view of 'American' culture

    Looking at what's happened since 1945 this seems to be bang on the money.

    A specifically Italian slant:


    White American is a such a bad term. I have nothing in common with Italian Americans, the majority of whom tan like Arabs, gel their hair, hit the techno clubs and are 5''6 degenerate city rats.
    So what if I like eating pizza? That doesn't mean I should tolerate Italians (who, like the Polish and Russian Jews, have been converging on the states like mad) and I can damn well make my own pizza, thank you very much.
    You say you have nothing in common with 'Italian Americans'. I was going to say that you, like they, call yourself 'American', but I notice you don't describe yourself as such. I thought that was what this thread was about. I assume English is your mother tongue. Around 60% of English words have a Greek or Latin route often through the French influence on the language. (source) It is arguable if the Roman influence on Northern Europe was beneficial, but it is certainly undeniably part of our history and therefor our contemporary culture.

    Bit about that here: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=110357

    However, I won't spend too much time defending Southern Europeans as very many of them are anti-Anglo and anti-German. They do seem to have chips on their continental shoulders, and I haven't yet forgiven the Romans for their unprovoked invasion and occupation of our Islands. Suffice to say I'd prefer Italians to Muslims or Africans as neighbours every time.

    There is something quite comical from a British or European perspective, about people in the US describing themselves as 'Irish American', 'African American', 'Italian American' etc., etc. It does seem to suggest cultural ambiguity and insecurity, as if these people know they're living away from home. The one group I've never heard of are 'English Americans'. Why do you think this is?

    This whole ambiguous terminology has developed because of a nation without a common heritage. It is another unwelcome import from the multicultural United States, enthusiastically adopted by our 'politically correct' trend-setters. We now have to endure absurdities such as "Black British" (African) and "British Asian" (Indian, Pakistani etc.). Clearly a pig born in a stable does not become a horse.

    I'm assuming you'd be happy to see the break up of the United States of America into more cohesive ethnocentric states? Or would you prefer the majority of those calling themselves 'Americans' who don't share your "Nordoid or Cromagnoid" heritage, to be evicted from the North 'American' continent?
    Last edited by Haereticus; Monday, January 12th, 2009 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Link: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=110357
    “It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words”

  9. #49
    Senior Member Angus's Avatar
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    Well here are my view points.

    Do you think American/Canadian/Australian are ethnicities?
    No

    Do they fit the requirements of what it takes to be an ethnic group?
    No. The only time i can see the Americans counting as their own ethnic group is when they all start to be a quater black, a quater latino, a quater italian and so on.

    Who are the true/genuine Americans/Canadians/Australians?
    the NATIVES who were there before the colonies settled in.

    Can a first generation Germanic immigrant call himself an American the same way that a descendent of the founding fathers can?
    If he wanted to, i suppose he could.


    What about a non-Germanic, white immigrant?
    same as above.


    What about the aboriginals of these countries, like the Native Americans? Are they part of the American ethnicity?
    I have no idea.

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