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Thread: What Do You Think of the Aryan Invasion Theory?

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Oswiu, I am studying it in more detail and would report. IE stock is around 15% in India. It seems that the IE higher castes mixed with Dravidian higher castes. This mix is also found in muslims because of conversion (either forced or that the muslim migration from Iran and Central Asia itself contained a high % of IE). The number of females in India initially was less. Of course, Dravidians came from North-West, and one report says that even the Tibeto-Burmese stock came from North-West. Most surprisingly, the IE component in India is nearly 10,000 years old. Till then.
    Last edited by Aupmanyav; Sunday, January 28th, 2007 at 05:12 AM.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists

    Sanghamitra Sengupta,1 Lev A. Zhivotovsky,2 Roy King,3 S. Q. Mehdi,4 Christopher A. Edmonds,3 Cheryl-Emiliane T. Chow,3 Alice A. Lin,3 Mitashree Mitra,5 Samir K. Sil,6 A. Ramesh,7 M. V. Usha Rani,8 Chitra M. Thakur,9 L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza,3 Partha P. Majumder,1 and Peter A. Underhill3

    1Human Genetics Unit, Indian Statistical Institute, Kolkata, India; 2N. I. Vavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow; 3Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford; 4Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Division, Dr. A. Q. Khan Research Laboratories, Islamabad; 5School of Studies in Anthropology, Pandit Ravishankar Shukla University, Raipur, India; 6University of Tripura, Tripura, India; 7Department of Genetics, University of Madras, Chennai, India; 8Department of Environmental Sciences, Bharathiar University, Coimbatore, India; and 9B. J. Wadia Hospital for Children, Mumbai, India

    Received July 26, 2005; accepted for publication November 3, 2005; electronically published December 16, 2005.

    Although considerable cultural impact on social hierarchy and language in South Asia is attributable to the arrival of nomadic Central Asian pastoralists, genetic data (mitochondrial and Y chromosomal) have yielded dramatically conflicting inferences on the genetic origins of tribes and castes of South Asia. We sought to resolve this conflict, using high-resolution data on 69 informative Y-chromosome binary markers and 10 microsatellite markers from a large set of geographically, socially, and linguistically representative ethnic groups of South Asia. We found that the influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000–15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture. Our results underscore the importance of marker ascertainment for distinguishing phylogenetic terminal branches from basal nodes when attributing ancestral composition and temporality to either indigenous or exogenous sources. Our reappraisal indicates that pre-Holocene and Holocene-era—not Indo-European—expansions have shaped the distinctive South Asian Y-chromosome landscape. (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH....abstract.html)

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Clearly a completely new interpretation of Aryan and Dravidian people into and out of India is needed, the old models do not work. It happened long back in history. (Same report)

    Expansion of HGs R1a1-M17 and R2-M124

    The phylogeography of the HG R*-M207 spans Europe, the Caucasus, West Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia; therefore, the hypothesis that there is an HG R*-M207 expansion locus central to all these regions is both plausible and parsimonious. This is consistent with our observation that HG R*-M207 is observed at a maximum of 3.4% frequency in Baluchistan and Punjab regions, whereas, in inner India, it is 0.3%. HG R1a1 displays both high frequencies and widespread geography, ranging from India to Norway (Quintana-Murci et al. 2001; Passarino et al. 2002), but is rare in East Asia (Su et al. 1999). The distribution of HG R2-M124 is more circumscribed relative to R1a1, but it has been observed at informative levels in Central Asia, Turkey, Pakistan, and India. The distribution of R1a1 and R2 within India is similar, as are the levels of associated microsatellite variance (table 12). The ages of the Y-microsatellite variation (table 11) for R1a1 and R2 in India suggest that the prehistoric context of these HGs will likely be complex. A principal-components plot of R1a1-M17 Y-microsatellite data (fig. 6) shows several interesting features: (a) one tight population cluster comprising southern Pakistan, Turkey, Greece, Oman, and West Europe; (b) one loose cluster comprising all the Indian tribal and caste populations, with the tribal populations occupying an edge of this cluster; and (c) Central Asia and Turkey occupy intermediate positions. The divergence time between the two clusters was 8–12 KYA. The pattern of clustering does not support the model that the primary source of the R1a1-M17 chromosomes in India was Central Asia or the Indus Valley via Indo-European speakers. Further, the relative position of the Indian tribals (fig. 6), the high microsatellite variance among them (table 12), the estimated age (14 KYA) of microsatellite variation within R1a1 (table 11), and the variance peak in western Eurasia (fig. 4) are entirely inconsistent with a model of recent gene flow from castes to tribes and a large genetic impact of the Indo-Europeans on the autochthonous gene pool of India. Instead, our overall inference is that an early Holocene expansion in northwestern India (including the Indus Valley) contributed R1a1-M17 chromosomes both to the Central Asian and South Asian tribes prior to the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The results of our more comprehensive study of Y-chromosome diversity are in agreement with the caveat of Quintana-Murci et al. (2001, p. 541), that "more complex explanations are possible," rather than their simplistic conclusion that HGs J and R1a1 reflect demic expansions of southwestern Asian Dravidian-speaking farmers and Central Asian Indo-European–speaking pastorialists.

    Y-Chromosome Substructure and the Geographic Origins of Dravidian Speakers

    The impact that Neolithic pastoralists had on the gene pool remains an outstanding topic, as is the origin of the Dravidian language. However, despite the potential consequences of population stratification and language shift, the irregular distributions of Y-chromosome HGs among the various social and linguistic groups provide important insights (table 6). HG L1-M76 has phylogeographic hallmarks consistent with an indigenous-origin model and an age of Y-microsatellite variation consistent with the early Holocene (9 KYA). Fuller (2003), using archeobotanical evidence, suggests that Dravidian originated in India, in contrast to western Asia (McAlpin 1974, 1981). The Dravidian-speaking castes essentially display similar levels of HGs R1a1, R2-M124, and L1-M76. On the basis of linguistic and religious evidence, if pastoralists arrived recently on a track from the north via Bactria, southern Tajikistan, northern Afghanistan, and the Hindu Kush into the northern Pakistan plains (Witzel 2004), one would expect to see L3-M357 in India. Although this HG occurs with an intermediate frequency in Pakistan (6.8%), it is very rare in India (0.4%). Conversely, L1-M76 occurs at a frequency of 7.5% in India and 5.1% in Pakistan. Lastly, the L1-M76 mean microsatellite variance is higher in India (0.35) than in Pakistan (0.19).

    Further, the distribution of J2a-M410 and J2b-M12 extends from Europe to India, and the virtual absence of HGs J1, E, and G in India indicates a complex scenario of movements not all associated with a single Neolithic and Indo-European spread from a common origin. Recently, mtDNA evidence was brought to bear on the model of an external northwest Indo-Iranian borderland as the Elamo-Dravidian source (Quintana-Murci et al. 2004). The result was cautiously interpreted as consistent with the proto-Elamite hypothesis. However, the possibility that the observed mtDNA HG frequency differences could also reflect the relocation of a more-ancient Indian Dravidian-speaking population that expanded toward the Indus and subsequently experienced gene flow from southwestern Asian sources could not be excluded (Quintana-Murci et al. 2004). The HG F*-M89 and H-M69* data are not in agreement with an exogenous-origin model, but the presence of these HGs in all subgroup classifications does not unequivocally support the indigenous model of Dravidian origins either. However, HG L1-M76, because it is clearly predominant in Dravidian speakers, corresponds most closely with the indigenous model. Further, the microsatellite variance within L1 is greater in southern India than in the Indus region (table 9). The spatial distributions of both L1 HG frequency and associated microsatellite variance (fig. 4) show a pattern of spread emanating from southern India. HG J2a-M410 is confined to upper-caste Dravidian and Indo-European speakers, with little occurrence in the middle and lower castes. This absence of even modest admixture of J2a in southern Indian tribes and middle and lower castes is inconsistent with the L1 data. Overall, therefore, our data provide overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    The pashtun and kashmiri claim to jewish ancestry has been refuted in this 2001 study.

    "Two populations, the Kashmiris and the Pathans also lay claim to a possible Jewish origin. Jewish populations commonly have a moderate frequency of haplogroup 21(20%) and a high frequency of haplogroup 9(36%). The frequencies of both of these haplogroups are low in both the Pathans and Kashmiris so no support of Jewish origin is found, although again this conclusion is limited both by the small sample size available from Kashmir and by the assumption that the modern samples are representative of ancient populations".

    The link:
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...966377470Guest

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran, North India were/are Aryan territories. It is foolish to talk about jews in this region.
    Last edited by Aupmanyav; Tuesday, January 30th, 2007 at 01:37 AM.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Aupman -
    sometimes spoken of are higher dravids. Are these originally in the north who might have beeen expected to be paler than others further to the south....it is these perhaps who may have mixed with incoming arya?

    OSWui - I still don't understand why there can't be a direct communication between Romania and the Ukraine ( and the east) .... there is the sub-Carpathian "Odessa Corridor" (ahem!), Moldova via the Galati region in the East. .... but I am beginning to appreciate the possibility of early 'incubation' in the southern areas.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Why should everybody be successively more paler than those who were there before (does it not show your own color predudice)? Skin colour changes in southern lattitudes in one life time. No mountain or sea is too difficult to cross. There was trade and migration even over the himalayas and all its jungles, and there were pilgrimages.

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    What Do You Think of the Aryan Invasion Theory?

    The title says it all. I want to know what those here think of the Aryan Invasion theory in Hindu lore. Personally I support it, but that's based on only a few quality researches I've read concerning it. What I'm looking for are good sources citing arguments for and against.

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    It is hard to tell whether the movement was from outside of India inward, or the other way around, either way, there were and to some extent nowadays, are Aryans in India, but the influence of Islam and the imposition of Victorian values has in many ways destroyed those aspects of Hindu culture which I love.

    Indologists of the past had their own agendas in advancing the Aryan invasion theory, but the Indigenous Origin theory has its own proponents with agendas.

    An interesting comparison is how Ireland and many other European cultures had strong cattle cultures, and the existence of a priestly caste in both Ireland and India is noteworthy. An interesting text is the Germanic riksmal which discusses castes in ancient Germanic society.
    SVMDEVSSVMCAESARSVMCAELVMETINFERNVM

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    What is the best history book to read on the subject? I have copies of the Rig Veda and so forth already. And another question - how prominent is the Aryan blood type in India, and where is it most evident? Are there any surviving cultural traditions bearing obvious resemblance to the Aryans? Any pure or almost pure isolated communities? I've heard of Hellenic villages in Asia dating from the time of Alexander, so isolated that they still exist...
    “Why is there Being at all, and not much rather Nothing? That is the question.”Martin Heidegger

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