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Thread: What Do You Think of the Aryan Invasion Theory?

  1. #121
    Senior Member Psychonaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie View Post
    It doesn't make sense to me to use the two names interchangeably.
    Sorry about any confusion.

    So is the I halogroup supposed indicate some degree of descendence from these ancient "Aryans"? Or R1a?
    Haplogroup I isn't generally connected to the PIE folks at all. Like R1b, it's though of as one of those native European Upper Paleolithic groups.

    In any case, I don't think I really like the idea of this Aryan superiority/invasion theory. It seems that since my roots lay in the British Isles, these Aryans/IEs weren't my people at all... therefore, I don't like them!
    It's just a shame we don't know more about the pre-IE peoples than we do.
    "Ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time."
    -H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie View Post
    So it's generally thought that these "Aryans" were IE ?
    The ones going into India? Yep.
    (as opposed to PIE? Or were PIEs just the IEs' forefathers?)
    I use IE to refer to all the daughter languages and subfamilies, and the collective whole of them all (including the ancestor). I reserve PIE for the original ethnic group/groups who spoke the ancestral language immediately prior to its break up and diffusion.
    As a cheap and cheerful illustration of how that works, imagine a PIE speaking group, say in Bohemia. The chief's younger son gathers a following and Dad's blessing, and goes and colonises Silesia. A century passes, there's still a level of contact between both groups, and they're both still PIE. Another century, and the eastern group start pronouncing their consonants differently, and the grammar's a bit different in some respects, they farm differently, and have mixed with their northern neighbours a little, picking up a different accent amongst other things. Another, and they can't understand the western kin any more. That's when you can say that a real sound shift has taken place and we have the makings of a whole new sub family of IE.
    The Aryans, or Indo-Aryan speakers were a bunch of IEans of such an eastern group (including the linguistic ancestors of Slavs, Balts, Greeks, Armenians and Palaeobalkan peoples) who were nearest the great grasslands of the Steppe. They learnt horsemanship and with this new adaptation were able to take that vast space as their own. Facing no competition, they kept riding. The Steppe goes from Hungary to Manchuria and the Persian Gulf. They filled it.
    and that their dominant Y-DNA halogroup was R1a? Which other Y-DNA groups would have been present in these peoples?
    I reckon for the Aryans in the narrow sense of the word, mostly R1a, I, J, and a dash of R1b. (That far western thing IS in there, and is good support for the Danubian Urheimat theory).
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    I think that Oswiu and I were using PIE and IE interchangeably, at least I know I was.
    I try not to! I wrote my distinction above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie View Post
    In any case, I don't think I really like the idea of this Aryan superiority/invasion theory. It seems that since my roots lay in the British Isles, these Aryans/IEs weren't my people at all... therefore, I don't like them!
    A healthy attitude!
    But it's probably analogous to not liking one of your great grandparents (and the one whose fortune you inherited)! Have more respect!
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    It's just a shame we don't know more about the pre-IE peoples than we do.
    It always annoyed me how mediums waste time helping people chat with relatives they saw only a few years ago, and completely neglect prehistory. There's so much they could offer!

  3. #123
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    There is no conceivable reason to use the term "Aryan" to denote all speakers of a common root language, because it only focuses on Iran aka Persia. Would such a people be representative enough for their ethnic name to be an umbrella for all? What real relationship did Aryana or Persia have with Europeans before Alexander the Great? Does the Battle of Thermopylae suggest that those people had a close relationship with Europeans or not? In any case, it is clear that this claim of Aryans is fully within relatively "recent" historical developments, rather than the archaelogical past as has erroneously or even dishonestly been implied. "Indo-European" languages and religions have a common origin, but the peoples who employ these are no more identical with one another than the prevalence of Semitic languages and religions being also not coexistent. What this means is, regardless of common origins, the language usage, religious beliefs and racial origins of those are not all the same with respect to any of these theories. They do not unite into common purpose in reality, regardless of how one may think they are related in theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    There is no conceivable reason to use the term "Aryan" to denote all speakers of a common root language, because it only focuses on Iran aka Persia. Would such a people be representative enough for their ethnic name to be an umbrella for all? What real relationship did Aryana or Persia have with Europeans before Alexander the Great?
    Who has been using the term like that here, apart from those who have subsequently received a drubbing for it, especially from me?

    The thread concerns the Aryan Invasion Theory for the linguistic reality of modern India. Aryan is a perfect word in this context, and refers to the group of IE speakers who gave the Iranians and Hindus their languages long ago, having spread south from the Great Steppe.

    We have wandered slightly off topic concerning the origin of these steppe-dwellers, but that isn't the important thrust of discussion here.

  5. #125
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    i believe it is more likely the aryans originated from the Eurasian Steppes or the middle east,
    not from india.

    i believe the invasion and migration theory is more likely than the Indigenous theory.
    the vedas talk about battle taking place and how the aryans conquered their enemies.

    sanskrit is the language of the vedas.
    sanskrit has its origins in the middle east not india.

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    Senior Member Kauz R. Waldher's Avatar
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    So what's the popular opinion on the Vedas? And Santana Dharma? Would it be as valid to a "white man/woman" as any form of Paganism or Heathendom? What I mean is, would it be "natural"? Or would it be the equivalent of a negro becoming an Odinist?

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    Senior Member Unity Mitford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Walter View Post
    So what's the popular opinion on the Vedas? And Santana Dharma? Would it be as valid to a "white man/woman" as any form of Paganism or Heathendom? What I mean is, would it be "natural"? Or would it be the equivalent of a negro becoming an Odinist?
    i don't know of the 'popular opinion' but whilst i identify as heathen, i think a lot can be learned from the vedas.

    it certainly would not be the equivalent of a negro becoming an Odinist - look at Hitler and Savitri Devi etc

  8. #128
    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Walter View Post
    So what's the popular opinion on the Vedas? And Santana Dharma?
    I don't think there's any popular consensus on the Vedas on this forum. Most of us are probably neutral to them, or have at least an appreciation. I've read the Samaveda, mostly out of curiosity and a youthful fascination with the ancient religion of the Indo-Aryans.

    (I suspect the Rigveda often gets referenced on these racialist forums, what with all those verses about the Aryans slaughtering the black-skinned Dasyus )

    Would it be as valid to a "white man/woman" as any form of Paganism or Heathendom? What I mean is, would it be "natural"?
    Well, being Indo-Aryan in origin, it probably doesn't contradict the European thought and spirit too much.

    As for Norse paganism, it's much closer to us in both time and space. So when most of us Germanics to go back in time and try to follow the religion of our ancestors, the Norse pagan customs are the obvious first choice. Of course, one might go back even further in time, to the ancient Indo-European religions, but many people here would perceive that as losing the uniquely Germanic essence that is present in the Norse pagan customs and religion.
    The pagan religions of the Germanics, Slavs, Celts and Greco-Romans grew out of a common Indo-European well, although each form took on a slightly different "character" of its own.

    Vedic Hinduism is obviously the oldest and most "alien" of all the Indo-European religions, having developed in Asia for thousands of years. But, to be honest, going back to your more immediate ancestors' paganism makes more sense from a folkish point of view than filling your head with Sanskrit mantras.

    Or would it be the equivalent of a negro becoming an Odinist?
    I won't have a problem with it at all, as long as you don't become too Indo-centric and develop wiggerish tendencies.

    I suppose you could start with Hatha Yoga and incorporate the more spiritual aspects into a general Germanic pagan worldview. In my experience, neo-pagans practicing yoga are not uncommon.

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    Senior Member Kauz R. Waldher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    I don't think there's any popular consensus on the Vedas on this forum. Most of us are probably neutral to them, or have at least an appreciation. I've read the Samaveda, mostly out of curiosity and a youthful fascination with the ancient religion of the Indo-Aryans.

    (I suspect the Rigveda often gets referenced on these racialist forums, what with all those verses about the Aryans slaughtering the black-skinned Dasyus )


    Well, being Indo-Aryan in origin, it probably doesn't contradict the European thought and spirit too much.

    As for Norse paganism, it's much closer to us in both time and space. So when most of us Germanics to go back in time and try to follow the religion of our ancestors, the Norse pagan customs are the obvious first choice. Of course, one might go back even further in time, to the ancient Indo-European religions, but many people here would perceive that as losing the uniquely Germanic essence that is present in the Norse pagan customs and religion.
    The pagan religions of the Germanics, Slavs, Celts and Greco-Romans grew out of a common Indo-European well, although each form took on a slightly different "character" of its own.

    Vedic Hinduism is obviously the oldest and most "alien" of all the Indo-European religions, having developed in Asia for thousands of years. But, to be honest, going back to your more immediate ancestors' paganism makes more sense from a folkish point of view than filling your head with Sanskrit mantras.


    I won't have a problem with it at all, as long as you don't become too Indo-centric and develop wiggerish tendencies.

    I suppose you could start with Hatha Yoga and incorporate the more spiritual aspects into a general Germanic pagan worldview. In my experience, neo-pagans practicing yoga are not uncommon.
    I honestly love the Bhagavad Gita and the Rigveda. Also, Julius Evola has alot of writings about the subject and man can that guy write a book! I love his writing and his logic. When I first picked up "revolt Against the Modern World" I thought he was talking directly to me, through me. I realised right then that I was not insane. What a relief He's the one who turned me onto it. And honestly, it is VERY inspiring. I'm a Wotanist though. Through and through. But some of the magick and yoga and such really makes a ton of sense to my personal logic, pre-Evola influence even. I'm just trying to find a way to incorporate it a little here and there whilst not betraying my Wotanist roots. Like, how can I balance this?
    "The mystery and secret of Wotan is not that "knowledge" of him is passed along through clandestine cults or even through the re-discovery of old books and texts--but rather that such knowledge is actually encoded in a mysterious way in the DNA, in the very genetic material, of those who are descended from him." - Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness

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    Senior Member Alfadur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kauz R. Walter View Post
    I honestly love the Bhagavad Gita and the Rigveda. Also, Julius Evola has alot of writings about the subject and man can that guy write a book! I love his writing and his logic. When I first picked up "revolt Against the Modern World" I thought he was talking directly to me, through me.
    Evola was indeed a brilliant writer, and a very prescient man (although his ideas were rather "out there", and didn't have much of an impact during Evola's own lifetime). I haven't read his Revolt Against The Modern World, though. Would like to pick it up sometime, but I don't think I'll ever have the time for it. I've read his Metaphysics of War (where he goes over warrior traditions) and his The Elements of Racial Education (where he makes a run-down of all the races and their spiritual traits). Both of them were very interesting reads.

    I realised right then that I was not insane. What a relief He's the one who turned me onto it. And honestly, it is VERY inspiring.
    Yes, all of us racially conscious people go through a moment like that. We've been beaten over the head with multiculturalist propaganda since our childhoods, so it's a major change. Most other races have this ethnocentric feeling without even thinking about it, but we often need to take a huge mental step.

    I'm a Wotanist though. Through and through.
    What do you mean by "Wotanist"? You're not talking about David Lane's bizarre homemade "religion", are you?

    But some of the magick and yoga and such really makes a ton of sense to my personal logic, pre-Evola influence even. I'm just trying to find a way to incorporate it a little here and there whilst not betraying my Wotanist roots. Like, how can I balance this?
    Well, I can't give you any advice on how to balance it, since I have no idea what your "Wotanist roots" are. As I said before, you could incorporate the spiritual aspects of Yoga into a Germanic neo-pagan worldview. (Siegfried Kummer even started a "Runenyoga" which had body postures based on Norse runes instead of Hindu symbols - although, it must be said, it's not nearly as challenging and complex as the original Yoga.) There's actually a lot to learn from the Vedic tradition in using the body to hone the mind and spirit.
    Apart from that...I suppose you could merge bits and pieces of original Vedic Hinduism (not the multicultural Hollywood version) into your broader "Wotanist" worldview, but without wholesale adopting an Indianized culture.

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