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Thread: What Do You Think of the Aryan Invasion Theory?

  1. #11
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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Years ago, after struggling with the question of the origin of the Indo-Europeans myself and running into countless articles like the one above, I just asked Dr. Marija Gimbutas the question. She had spent her life researching this problem. She said, near the Black Sea in between the mouths of the Dom and Dneiper Rivers (where they empty into the Black Sea). This simple question was better than any research work I could do on my own.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    I just asked Dr. Marija Gimbutas the question. She had spent her life researching this problem. She said, near the Black Sea in between the mouths of the Dom and Dneiper Rivers (where they empty into the Black Sea). This simple question was better than any research work I could do on my own.
    How can Mrs. Gimbutas be so sure?

    The place she has made out, though, is somewhat nearer to her hometown.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    Years ago, after struggling with the question of the origin of the Indo-Europeans myself and running into countless articles like the one above, I just asked Dr. Marija Gimbutas the question. She had spent her life researching this problem. She said, near the Black Sea in between the mouths of the Dom and Dneiper Rivers (where they empty into the Black Sea). This simple question was better than any research work I could do on my own.
    Haha! Had you asked me the same, I'd have said Panonnia! I base it on the need to connect something from the North of the Old World, with the new Agriculture from the South, in such a place and time as to ensure that the further north western spread of agriculture would be IE, while still allowing for a pastoral element, ready to rush eastward. Anatolia was FULL. The southern Balkans likewise. The Pontic Steppe too remote, and the Kurgan invasion theory too shaky. The dearth of nonIE substrates in the north must be explained. Botanical common words help to provide geographical parameters for the Urheimat too. All this points to me, to something just beyond the Meso-Neolithic contact zone of the Danube's Iron Gorges, Lepenski Vir in Serbia. The immediate predecessors of the Linearbandkeramik.

    SO you met Gimbutas in real life?! What's she like?

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    AW: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    I see no clear arguments for the Indian Urheimat in that article.

    I completely agree that the IE civilization did not began 1500 B.C, making the IE people nomads which invaded existing civilizations and IEised/improved them.

    The legends do indeed clearly point to an old IE history. The Rig Veda is likely a better preserved text than the Avesta but this does not prove that it was copied from an original Rig Veda from India. Most likely the Avesta is more strongly modified and both are based on a lost original version.

    I have not heard of an archaeological breakthrough in India proving that there was a very old civilization with clear Aryan traits, ultimately denying a Dravidian origin.

    For eastern Iran there is the Jiroft civilisation of 3000 B.C, but it is still not proved whether it was of Dravidic/Elamite origin or of IE/Aryan origin.

    I believe that there was a old Indo-Iranic civilization in what is not eastern Iran, Afgahnestan and bordering in the north with south Russia, this was one Aryan division with at least one further one bordering it to the west/north and reaching up to the Black Sea/Ukraine. The Indian division then divided and went on southern direction.




    But I fully agree that the current Aryan-timeline should be dismissed there were clearly earlier migration of Aryans into places like the middle-east. While the numbers weren’t probably as large as the Persian invasion into Persia (province) for example, it is still clear that Iranians didn’t come from the steppes only at 800 B.C.
    Thus I agree that the traditional chronology of the Aryan civilizations isn’t up to date by now, but the out of India theory is still a theory and not proven. Everything still hints at somewhere south of Russia.
    636 A.D Rostam Eran-Sepahbod:

    "Lineage and skill will garner no respect,
    Men will be mutual thieves and have no shame,
    What's hidden will be worse than what is known,
    and stony-hearted kings will seize the throne.
    A misbegotten slave will rule the earth,
    Greatness and lineage will have no worth,
    No one will keep his word…

    Then Persians will live together side by side
    with Turks and Arabs, mixed far and wide...
    The three will blur, as if they were the same..."

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Haha! Had you asked me the same, I'd have said Panonnia! I base it on the need to connect something from the North of the Old World, with the new Agriculture from the South, in such a place and time as to ensure that the further north western spread of agriculture would be IE, while still allowing for a pastoral element, ready to rush eastward. Anatolia was FULL. The southern Balkans likewise. The Pontic Steppe too remote, and the Kurgan invasion theory too shaky. The dearth of nonIE substrates in the north must be explained. Botanical common words help to provide geographical parameters for the Urheimat too. All this points to me, to something just beyond the Meso-Neolithic contact zone of the Danube's Iron Gorges, Lepenski Vir in Serbia. The immediate predecessors of the Linearbandkeramik.

    SO you met Gimbutas in real life?! What's she like?
    This is exactly the problem. This is a complicated problem with new twists and turns constantly being added.

    I took a course from her in 1969 or 1970, "Bronze Age Europe", and then used this course to try to evade taking yet another "related Social Science" (meaning Psychology or Sociology) for a degree. She was way better than another Psych. course. She had a project going at the time in Hungary, involving the origins of the Neolithic in Europe. Their premise was that it developed independently in Europe and did not necessarily spread from the Near East. She was working with a chemist, graduate student at the time, Reiner Proach. Reiner organized some volunteers who had taken the Anthro. bone course to seperate domestic animal bone from wild animal bone for remains coming from this particular site. I volunteered and got to work with Reiner whom I had already met. He was a chemist who actually knew bones and human evolution and all the problems of the Neolithic transistion. It was great to work under him for awhile. Too bad about his recent problems in Germany, if you followed them. He really was competent when I knew him. The result of this project pushed back the Neolithic in terms of time in Europe. We all thought Gimbutas was something special but she had not even approached her zenith at that time.

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    O yes, the out of India theory

    possible, possible

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Probably Aryans were in Sintasha around 6,000 BC, but why does RigVeda mention 1. Seven suns born to Aditi and the eighth born unformed (Martanda-Mrit+Anda-Dead Egg, Seven months of sunlight), 2. Dawns, beautiful, 30 sisters, who delayed the arrival of sun, 3. Ati-Ratra, Dark Nght, which could be 2 or 3 months but never more than 100 days, and 4. Navagwah and Dashagwah, priests who completed their yearly ceremonies in nine or ten months (leaving out Ati-Ratra, when ceremonies other than Ashwamedha, to fortify Indra's steed for early release of sun were not performed)? Aryans hailed from sub-polar regions.

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    AW: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    @Aupmanyav

    Same situation in the Avesta.
    636 A.D Rostam Eran-Sepahbod:

    "Lineage and skill will garner no respect,
    Men will be mutual thieves and have no shame,
    What's hidden will be worse than what is known,
    and stony-hearted kings will seize the throne.
    A misbegotten slave will rule the earth,
    Greatness and lineage will have no worth,
    No one will keep his word…

    Then Persians will live together side by side
    with Turks and Arabs, mixed far and wide...
    The three will blur, as if they were the same..."

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Please send me an email to receive our paper Proto Vedic Continuity Theory of Bharatiya Langauges. Thanks!

    M. Kelkar

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    Re: Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Aupmanyav View Post
    Probably Aryans were in Sintasha around 6,000 BC, but why does RigVeda mention 1. Seven suns born to Aditi and the eighth born unformed (Martanda-Mrit+Anda-Dead Egg, Seven months of sunlight), 2. Dawns, beautiful, 30 sisters, who delayed the arrival of sun, 3. Ati-Ratra, Dark Nght, which could be 2 or 3 months but never more than 100 days, and 4. Navagwah and Dashagwah, priests who completed their yearly ceremonies in nine or ten months (leaving out Ati-Ratra, when ceremonies other than Ashwamedha, to fortify Indra's steed for early release of sun were not performed)? Aryans hailed from sub-polar regions.
    I agree. They originated from sub polar regions and migrated south. As mentioned, they worshiped Dawn as a godess which indicates the scarcity of the Sun. Also, Agni (from Latin Ignis or ignite} is the God of Fire. One of their settlements in India they mention non aryans as black skinned indicating they were white which indicates that they did not live near the sun. Aryans evolved in the cold North region thus, not seeing much sun, they were pale, whereas people who live in the sun are dark.

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