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Thread: Who Were the Proto-Indo-Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    I hope I'm not straying too much from the topic, but the issue of the Dravidians is an interesting one.
    I don't believe it's OT at all, as we have to have an awareness of the non-IE midst that our language family 'grew up' in, and we need analogies from the history of even unrelated families to stimulate our 'ethnographic imagination' when dealing with such distant times.
    Linguists have noted a similarity between the Turkic languages and Dravidian, and some believe the Turkic and Sumerian languages come from a common origin.
    Isn't it rather more a similarity due to similar operation of the language, rather than anything due to (relatively recent) common descent? As I understand it, there are several ways in which a language's grammar can work - one being the 'agglutinative' type, which unites Turkic, FinnoUgric, Dravidian and possibly Sumerian.
    Anthropological evidence seems to support these links; the Sumerians were racially "Irano-Afghan", and it would seem that the original Turkic people were as well;
    How do you justify the Turkic protolanguage being spoken by Irano-Afghan types? I had always understood that Turkic originated in far northeastern Asia, among Tungusid Mongoloids, somewhere around the Baikal-Manchuria-Sayan area.
    I'm not sure about skeletal evidence from the Dravidians in India, but certainly high caste Indians seem to be typically of a basically Irano-Afghan phenotype (with admixture from other Indian types, of course), and the Indus Valley civilisation seems to have a lot in common with that of Sumer.
    But wouldn't high-caste Indians be the worst group to look at for evidence of what original Dravidians looked like? Aren't they rather the most Aryanised group there? Shouldn't we rather look to the higher castes (perhaps Kshatria rather than Brahmin) among the surviving Dravidian speakers, where incoming Dravidian genes might be suspected to have had least mixture from Weddoid natives and later IE invaders?
    So I tend to think that the Irano-Afghans must have spoken a language which diverged into the three above mentioned, after they spread out into those areas and came into contact with other ethnic groups.
    Strong linkage of Irano-Afghan with other Nordoid types especially from the former 'Scythosphere', its preponderance among undoubted 'purer' remnants of original Aryan invaders in Iran and India, and the presence of too many radically different anthropological types for the natives of the areas under discussion would seem to refute this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    I don't believe it's OT at all, as we have to have an awareness of the non-IE midst that our language family 'grew up' in, and we need analogies from the history of even unrelated families to stimulate our 'ethnographic imagination' when dealing with such distant times.
    Yes, good point.

    Isn't it rather more a similarity due to similar operation of the language, rather than anything due to (relatively recent) common descent? As I understand it, there are several ways in which a language's grammar can work - one being the 'agglutinative' type, which unites Turkic, FinnoUgric, Dravidian and possibly Sumerian.
    I must admit I'm not familiar with exactly what the similarities actually are, only that similarities exist. I get the impression there's a bit more to it than just agglutination though

    How do you justify the Turkic protolanguage being spoken by Irano-Afghan types? I had always understood that Turkic originated in far northeastern Asia, among Tungusid Mongoloids, somewhere around the Baikal-Manchuria-Sayan area.
    What I should have suggested is that even if Turkic-Dravidian-Sumerian aren't directly descended lineally from the language of this Irano Afghan race, this language might have mixed with other languages to form them, or at least strongly influenced them all; or perhaps there might be truth in all three possibilities. Maybe Turkic is the result of Irano-Afghans merging with other groups.
    At any rate Coon mentions a strong Irano-Afghan element among the early Turkic peoples, in fact he seems to think that was their original physical type.

    But this brings to mind another thing I've wondered about; that there might be an Irano-Afghan racial element in East Asia, swamped by the Mongolid genes but perhaps detectible even so (and again early Chinese civilisation is somewhat reminiscent of the Sumerians). Certainly I have noticed a tendency in some Asians to a fairly narrow face and projecting occiput, along with a slim, fairly tall build. There is also a tendency to hooked noses along with sharply arched eyebrows. Because there is almost always heavy Mongolid influence in such individuals it's hard to tell, but it does make me wonder.

    These characteristics seem most common in Japan and maybe Korea, which is interesting given that their languages are (if I remember correctly) agglutinative, with some linguists placing them with the Turkic languages.

    But wouldn't high-caste Indians be the worst group to look at for evidence of what original Dravidians looked like?
    Not necessarily. The Indus Valley was a pretty advanced civilisation, so I find it hard to believe that the Aryans arrived in large enough numbers to have swamped even the upper classes of this society.

    Aren't they rather the most Aryanised group there?
    Well, one would think it's the most likely group in which to find descendants of the Aryans, but I tend to think even the more upper caste section of Indian society would be predominantly pre-Aryan in ancestry. I can't exactly say I've studied it extensively though.

    Shouldn't we rather look to the higher castes (perhaps Kshatria rather than Brahmin) among the surviving Dravidian speakers, where incoming Dravidian genes might be suspected to have had least mixture from Weddoid natives and later IE invaders?
    Perhaps, yes, but then if the Dravidian language originated with Irano-Afghans who invaded from the West, their genetic legacy is likely to be weaker in the very areas where the Dravidian language survives.

    Strong linkage of Irano-Afghan with other Nordoid types especially from the former 'Scythosphere', its preponderance among undoubted 'purer' remnants of original Aryan invaders in Iran and India, and the presence of too many radically different anthropological types for the natives of the areas under discussion would seem to refute this.
    I'm not quite sure what you're implying with these three statements. Are you suggesting that Irano-Afghans are an Indo-European variety? If so, the Sumerians seem hard to explain, being absolutely non-IE and yet almost purely Irano-Afghan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    Yes, good point.
    :p
    I must admit I'm not familiar with exactly what the similarities actually are, only that similarities exist. I get the impression there's a bit more to it than just agglutination though
    So I thought, but when you actually start looking, all you find are tons of drivel from Hungarians/Turks/Finns about how they are related to the great Sumerians, or rather, how they are directly descended from them, and should receive all credit for civilisation on the Earth! Gobsmackingly ridiculous lexical correspondences are cited, and you even get people publicly admitting no knowledge of Sumerian linguistics purporting to be able to read the cuneiform by treating it as though it was mere Hungarian or Turkish or whatever! Please, if you ever do find anything worth looking at on the matter, I'd be the first person to want it passing on to!
    What I should have suggested is that even if Turkic-Dravidian-Sumerian aren't directly descended lineally from the language of this Irano Afghan race, this language might have mixed with other languages to form them, or at least strongly influenced them all; or perhaps there might be truth in all three possibilities. Maybe Turkic is the result of Irano-Afghans merging with other groups.
    This sort of thing does seem to have happened in some other cases, Japanese and Korean being the best examples, cited by yourself below, and superficial similarities with modern 'pidgin' languages might reveal something similar for Altaic at some stage in its or its separate branches' development.

    I just can't see how the IranoAfghan racial type can have any relevance to the Turkic question though. Non-Mongoloid types in the far north of Eurasia at the time in question are far more likely to have been undifferentiated intermediate types rather than true Europoids, no? Or something separate again, as I've read on the forums a few times for the Uralid type. The Scythians do seem to have got as far as the Altai - the Minusinsk kurgans come to mind - and their influence does seem to have leaked into further remote regions (see Chinggis Khan's fabled ancestry and looks) - but this all seems too late in the day to have effected the origins of Turkic.
    At any rate Coon mentions a strong Irano-Afghan element among the early Turkic peoples, in fact he seems to think that was their original physical type.
    But does he really say that? Or does he just say that for the modern Turkic speakers of Central Asia - once uncontestedly Aryan a region.

    The oldest known speakers of Turkic languages are the Hunnu in old Chinese sources, most likely originating around Lake Baikal in Siberia.
    But this brings to mind another thing I've wondered about; that there might be an Irano-Afghan racial element in East Asia, swamped by the Mongolid genes but perhaps detectible even so (and again early Chinese civilisation is somewhat reminiscent of the Sumerians).
    Reminiscent in what way?!? We're getting to the point where you really have to be a bit more careful in order not to seem too close to the Atlantis fantics!
    Certainly I have noticed a tendency in some Asians to a fairly narrow face and projecting occiput, along with a slim, fairly tall build. There is also a tendency to hooked noses along with sharply arched eyebrows. Because there is almost always heavy Mongolid influence in such individuals it's hard to tell, but it does make me wonder.

    These characteristics seem most common in Japan and maybe Korea, which is interesting given that their languages are (if I remember correctly) agglutinative, with some linguists placing them with the Turkic languages.
    The racial histories of all these peoples are complex, and many things must have gone on east-west, north-south before even the Scythians showed up, but we don't need to bring IranoAfghans into this - think of the American Indians! There are your prominent noses and whatnot. Inherited from a shared common ancestor with many east Asians, no doubt.
    Not necessarily. The Indus Valley was a pretty advanced civilisation, so I find it hard to believe that the Aryans arrived in large enough numbers to have swamped even the upper classes of this society.
    The society was well and truly lost though. It collapsed - probably from its own internal contradictions as most societies do sooner or later - and the population fall must have been great. Add to that the disruption of invasion, and newfangled caste ideas of the Aryans, and I don't think there'd be too much Dravidian left in the upper classes. Of course incoming warrior chief would likely have married daughters of what local chieftains survived, but the mitochondrial evidence seems to indicate that the incomers brought a lot of their own women too.
    Perhaps, yes, but then if the Dravidian language originated with Irano-Afghans who invaded from the West, their genetic legacy is likely to be weaker in the very areas where the Dravidian language survives.
    That would be a good parallel to the Celts in Europe.
    But look at Sri Lanka - the oldest population layer, the people who resemble Australian Aborigines all speak an IE language. The Tamils are a later set of colonists, and are of far more western a stock.
    I'm not quite sure what you're implying with these three statements. Are you suggesting that Irano-Afghans are an Indo-European variety? If so, the Sumerians seem hard to explain, being absolutely non-IE and yet almost purely Irano-Afghan.
    Is that a certain established fact about the Sumerians? I would like to hear where you heard it. I'm not denying the possibility, of course, and am willing to modify my impressions accordingly, but it remains the case that the Sumerians' origins remain obscure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    So I thought, but when you actually start looking, all you find are tons of drivel from Hungarians/Turks/Finns about how they are related to the great Sumerians, or rather, how they are directly descended from them, and should receive all credit for civilisation on the Earth! Gobsmackingly ridiculous lexical correspondences are cited, and you even get people publicly admitting no knowledge of Sumerian linguistics purporting to be able to read the cuneiform by treating it as though it was mere Hungarian or Turkish or whatever! Please, if you ever do find anything worth looking at on the matter, I'd be the first person to want it passing on to!
    I've read it in Encyclopaedia Britannica if I remember rightly, so I don't think it's all just speculation by fanatics, although no doubt some of it is. The Finno-Ugric group may well be influenced by Turkic, but in any case there is no anthropological evidence to back up the idea of the former being descended from common ancestors with the Sumerians.

    I just can't see how the IranoAfghan racial type can have any relevance to the Turkic question though. Non-Mongoloid types in the far north of Eurasia at the time in question are far more likely to have been undifferentiated intermediate types rather than true Europoids, no?
    Why is that? They could simply be invaders (or their descendants) from an Irano-Afghan 'homeland'.

    But does he really say that?
    I think he does, or at least implies it. I'll try and find the relevant passage.

    Reminiscent in what way?!? We're getting to the point where you really have to be a bit more careful in order not to seem too close to the Atlantis fantics!
    Hehe, well you can forget about the Sumerian connection, that's only speculation, and not part of my main point (the similarities are the high culture, with well-developed cities, and the early development of writing).

    Edit:

    At any rate, I don't see why it should be hard to believe that the Irano-Afghan type reached East Asia. The type is (or at least certainly has been in the past) present in Central Asia, so spreading a bit beyond in fairly small proportions seems, if anything, rather likely. It may even be that they were well-blended with Mongolids by the time they reached the East.

    The racial histories of all these peoples are complex, and many things must have gone on east-west, north-south before even the Scythians showed up, but we don't need to bring IranoAfghans into this - think of the American Indians! There are your prominent noses and whatnot. Inherited from a shared common ancestor with many east Asians, no doubt.
    I have wondered whether the genes for a convex nose are part of the Mongolid genetic make-up, but that the effect tends to be neutralised by the genes for flatness and smallness of nose, and is therefore only expressed fully when nasal prominence is more present.
    But I now think the possible Irano-Afghan influence makes more sense (the Amerindians might have the hooked nose from another non-Mongolid source, given that they certainly don't seem fully Mongolid in a lot of other respects as well).

    The society was well and truly lost though. It collapsed - probably from its own internal contradictions as most societies do sooner or later - and the population fall must have been great.
    Well, it needn't be so catastrophic, in fact I doubt that it was, at least in terms of population.

    Add to that the disruption of invasion, and newfangled caste ideas of the Aryans, and I don't think there'd be too much Dravidian left in the upper classes.
    But the caste system could be as much Dravidian (or whatever they were) as Aryan in origin. As with other invasions, the Aryan middle classes would be likely to end up blending with the Dravidian middle classes, and the Aryan and Dravidian upper classes would also eventually become indistinguishable, but with the Aryans a minority in both. The descendants of the pre-Dravidians would remain in the lower classes/castes. The really strict aspect of the caste system was a somewhat later development, so I've read.

    Of course incoming warrior chief would likely have married daughters of what local chieftains survived, but the mitochondrial evidence seems to indicate that the incomers brought a lot of their own women too.
    Yes but who are these "incomers" that are found to be identifiable by DNA? I would argue that they could just as well be Irano-Afghan Dravidian type invaders, rather than the later Aryans, who are being traced here.

    Is that a certain established fact about the Sumerians?
    I believe so. Coon describes the skulls, and the Irano-Afghan type strongly predominates throughout Mesopotamian history in the area of Sumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oski View Post
    Well pre-indo-europeans include Ugro-Finnics, Basques, Picts, Etruscans etc. I suggest you look up these terms:

    Salutreans
    Cro-magnon
    Upper paleolithic
    Bell beaker
    Aurignacian
    Dinaric race
    Alpine race
    Nordic race
    Mediterranean race
    Finnic peoples
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

    Basic, yet this should keep you reading.

    Far from that, Proto-Indo-Europeans arrived in Europe under four genetic lineages:

    R1a1 and I for men. J and T for women.

    They were principally Slavic (R1a1) thus deriving from the Kurgan refuge (Ukrainian refuge during Paleolithic however).
    I derived from the Balkanic refuge during the Palaelithic but expanded only during Neolithic and late Mesolithic times. Principally of Germanic core, it accultured the local Basque R1b (non-indo-european).

    Celtic culture was introduced quite lately by 'african' genes such as E1b1b.
    The Caucasoid race starts from haplogroup E1b1b, this does not exclude that we can find both caucasoid and negroid members of haplogroup E.
    The latter reaches its highest frequencies among Berbers.
    In definitive, it is found at a frequency of 93% in Anglesey (Wales) while it is found at a frequency of 1.6% in the rest of Wales (and Britain in general) where the Basque R1bs predominate.

    Haplogroups J and T are quite remarkable when studying Proto-indo-europeans:

    While male genes support the Kurgan expansion of indo-european languages,
    the maternal evidence supports the Paleo-Hittite/Anatolian spread of indo-european languages.

    J and T derive from a single mother called JT.
    J is the most common in Europe, it can reach up to 13%.
    It divides in three important subclades: J*, J1 and J2.

    J* and J1 are useful markers to trace the spread of Germanic and Slavic languages while J2 expands from through the Mediterranean and is used to trace Celtic languages.

    T mainly expands Slavo-Germanic languages. Gothic and Vandal tribes both carried J*, J1 and T.
    In definitive, these markers also spread agriculture and iron along with indo-european languages on a European population primarly composed of Basque hunter-gatherers.

    Czar Nikolay Romanov the second belonged to mtdna haplogroup T.
    http://forums.skadi.net/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=35100&datel  ine=1263407728

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    choise?

    There are so many genetic lines in the western european bloodline it's down to a matter of of which culture you relate to, the introduction of new bloodlines into the tribal mix is essential to ofset inbreeding, look at the problems the Icelanders have!

    Tracing the linguistic influences is more about warfare and fashion than the preservation of culture, look how much the germanic languages have changed in the last 100 years, the classic linguistic dog's breakfast is English, you're reading this on a "computer", thats so germanic! It's always been like that.

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    New Evidence

    There is new evidence since this thread was started.

    The Proto-Indoeuropean group came from the Caucuses (in present day Southern Russia) between the Black and Caspian Seas (Not in Turkey). They spread widely because they were Nomadic Horsemen (Much like the gigantic Mongol Expansion we are familiar with) and also the Proto-IE's drank milk while most of Europe was Lactose intolerant.

    They were probably ruthlessly militant in taking over new territory (much like all the other nomadic groups that took over vast amounts of land).

    Also something important to understand is that while they were able to take over new territory to impose their language, their genetic influences were probably not that great. Over thousands of years a few of their genes like lactose tolerance were slightly more beneficial and spread through most of the population (very slowly). Overtime some of the territory that they took over that spoke an Indo-European language, took over other territories and overtime almost all of europe began to speak indo-european languages.

    I learned all this information from the book " The 10,000 Year Explosion" which talks about human evolution over the past 10,000 years and migration patterns.

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    Why?

    The last Ice Age forced the earlier inhabitants of Europe south, their genetics would have been present in the nomadic tribes that followed the glacial retreat north 14 thousand years ago. Those folk absorbed the later invaders, all of them, to become Europe's first nations, I don't understand why so many people look outside of Europe for their origins? These later invaders got forced out of their original homeland and probably caught a good flogging when they entered Europe and were reduced to serfs before the best of their women were taken to wife. Why do so many germanic folk want to be decended from such losers?

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    arannos, There are a couple things about your post that I think are misguiding.

    Your Quote;"Why do so many germanic folk want to be decended from such losers?"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When looking at history you cannot let your own opinions hide facts. Again let me point out that while they had MASSIVE influence linguistically their contribution to genetics was almost negligible. In genetics, a few genes that are slightly more beneficial than another type of genes spread throughout the population over time. This is how the lactose tolerance gene spread which originated in the Proto-European linguistic group. Other than this beneficial gene their genetic influence is probably extremely small.



    Your Quote; "look outside of Europe for their origins?"
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These Indo-European invaders were actually European- from present day southern Russia between the Black and Caspian seas. Their linguistic influences were great, but their genetic influences were extremely small except for lactose-tolerance.

    Also it doesn't mean that this one group (from Southern Russia) took over all of Europe. It is much more reasonable that they took over a certain section of Europe, then that section took over another section. Then one of those sections took over another section all without the Proto-Indo-Europeans traveling too far from their own homeland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arannos
    These later invaders got forced out of their original homeland and probably caught a good flogging when they entered Europe and were reduced to serfs before the best of their women were taken to wife.
    Actually, it was more likely vice versa. The invaders took the women of the people being already here, that's how invasion works. Kill the men and take the women.

    And, it's just a fact that (P)IE originated in the Caucasus, that doesnt make us a non-European people though. The location of origin is relatively unimportant to today's race locations, due to the millenias of constant migration into all four directions.
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