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Thread: Muslims face hard choices in Germany

  1. #11
    Senior Member Elysium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lögsögumaður View Post
    Yes, that's a thing that pisses me off. If one comes to our country: dedicated to becoming a citizen. He or she should have the chance to do so. Citizenship is something rather exclusive.. for me it means the following things: learn the culture, history, national anthem, political and social system and the language inside out, defend your new country by joining up in it's armed forces for the duration of at least 18 months. After that you should be allowed to receive your passport and your citizenship (and that means loosing your old foreign passport since you have become a fulll member of our community) . Then you have proven yourself worthy.

    If a migrant should have the audacity to decline that option.. he/she should be rushed to Schiphol Airport and put on the first aeroplane home.. plain and simple.
    Fair enough. I usually take it a step further. I think citizenship should only be given to whoever has full ancestry to the particular country.

    I think; however, there should be Business Visas, similar to those the Japanese give out for foreigners. But everyone knows they're second-class citizens.
    Perfection.

    War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #12
    Senior Member stormlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
    Fair enough. I usually take it a step further. I think citizenship should only be given to whoever has full ancestry to the particular country.

    I think; however, there should be Business Visas, similar to those the Japanese give out for foreigners. But everyone knows they're second-class citizens.
    I basically agree with that, but there's a simple way of obtaining the same result without looking racist. If you required foreigners wanting citizenship to take two years of full time study of national culture and history, then a year of full military service, before awarding citizenship, the number of applicants would drop to almost zero, so you'd get the desired result without "discriminating" against anyone.

    It's basically the same concept that Jews use so that they don't look racist; they say anyone can become Jewish.... as long as they meet the local rabbi.........at 5:00 am.............every morning............for torah study........for about 3 years. Needless to say Jews don't exactly have a large number of converts

    The best way to discourage applications to join any kind of group is to make the conditions of membership extremely onerous.

  3. #13
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
    Fair enough. I usually take it a step further. I think citizenship should only be given to whoever has full ancestry to the particular country.
    I think this goes a step to far.
    Here in Germany we have a long history of integrating people from other countries, Poles for example or French.
    Where is the point in excluding a Dutch from obtaining swedish citizenship if he had lived in the country for half his live?
    And, even more, in your model, if two states would follow it, a child with parents from both states would not have any citizenship at all, 'cause he has "full ancestry" neither in the one nor in the other.
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    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivalin View Post
    take two years of full time study of national culture and history, then a year of full military service, before awarding citizenship
    Would be a good idea to implement sth like that not only for foreigners, but for inlanders, too...

    (No?)
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  5. #15
    Senior Member stormlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -jmw- View Post
    Would be a good idea to implement sth like that not only for foreigners, but for inlanders, too...

    (No?)
    Indeed it would, we wouldn't want to be discriminating on ethnic grounds now would we?

  6. #16
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Oh, no!, we wouldn't, 'cause that would be... like... uh, not nice...


    But, to be serious for a minute, as long as citizenship means more than having a passport, as long at it means having a say in how the state is run, we shouldn't give it awy freely, to no one, no matter where he was born or who is parents are.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member stormlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -jmw- View Post
    Oh, no!, we wouldn't, 'cause that would be... like... uh, not nice...


    But, to be serious for a minute, as long as citizenship means more than having a passport, as long at it means having a say in how the state is run, we shouldn't give it awy freely, to no one, no matter where he was born or who is parents are.
    I agree completely, I think these days "citizenship" lacks the meaning it once had.

    I know it's just a science fiction novel (although it is on the reading list at Westpoint so I guess that makes it respectable), but my favoured form of citizenship is the one found in Starship Troopers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_troopers

    Citizens should be distinguished from ordinary civilians. Civilians are accorded every right, except the right to vote. Those individuals that want the right to vote do a full term of service and become citizens.

    since sovereign franchise is the ultimate in human authority, we insure that all who wield it accept the ultimate in social responsibility — we require each person who wishes to exert control over the state to wager his own life — and lose it, if need be to save the life of the state. The maximum responsibility a human can accept is thus equated to the ultimate authority a human can exert.

    Funnily enough, the society in the book is based on Switzerland.

  8. #18
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Yeah, Heinlein is great!
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  9. #19
    Naturbursche
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    That's at least better then those forced citizenships, like in France or other countries. Since many Immigrants with an arabian background and turkish background are nationalists, i'm sure that those will choose their home-country.




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