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Thread: Countries with a Germanic Influence?

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusMagnus View Post
    When the Germans invaded in WW2 the croats claimed hey were germanics (there is a lot of blond hair and blue eyes in Croatia) there was also a sizeable German minority iving in Croatia at the begining of WW2.
    No, they did not claim that they are "Germanic" . They just threw their guns aside and went over to the German side ("we are pro-Hitler") , thereby not willing to die for Yugoslavia or the Serbs. That's why Yugoslavia collapsed within 1 week and the German losses were less than 500 men. On the day the Germans arrived in Zagreb ( under the hailing of the saluting masses) the NDH was proclaimed---the Independed Croatian Republic with Dr. Ante Pavelic as "Fuhrer" (Poglavnik)---and organized after the German example.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

    Axis troops liberated Independent State of Croatia (NDH - Nezavisna Država Hrvatska) of Yugoslav oppression and entered Zagreb on April 10, 1941. Pavelić, who was known by his Ustaše title, "Poglavnik" (Head-man) returned to Zagreb from exile in Italy on April 17 and became the absolute leader of the NDH throughout its existence

    ---
    Countries with a Germanic Influence?---Indeed, as part of the Austrian Empire the Croats have a strong Germanic influence. They were, next to the German-Austrians a factor of integration inside the Hapsburg monarchy. The principle factors of disintegration were Serbian-, Polish- and Czech Nationalism. See Prof. Dr. Matt Johnson's lecture on the Austrian Empire, it is fair and balanced.

    The Austrian Empire ---by Dr. Matt Johnson

    3 Quotes by AH about the Croats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Hitler
    "The Croats are certainly more Germanic than Slav.
    The Estonians, too, have a lot of Germanic blood." 12.7.1941

    "The Croats are a proud people. They should be bound directly to the Führer by an oath of loyalty. Like that, one could rely upon them absolutely. When I have Kvaternic standing in front of me, I behold the very type of the Croat as I've always known him, unshakeable in his friendships, a man whose oath is eternally binding. The Croats are very keen on not being regarded as Slavs. According to them, they're descended from the Goths. The fact that they speak a Slav language is only an accident, they say." 2.10.1941

    "Turning to the Croats, I must say I think it is
    highly desirable, from the ethnically point of view, that they
    should be Germanized. There are, however, political reasons
    which completely preclude any such measures." *12.5.1942


    *= Hitler would have been all too glad to merge them with the Germans ("ethnical point of view"), but see quote 1 why it is not possible nor desirable (political reasons="They are a proud people" and want to remain what they are: Croats).

  2. #112
    Senior Member MaximusMagnus's Avatar
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    This is intresting, may not be to accurate bc it came from WP

    According to the Gothic theory[citation needed], Croats would be descendants of Ostrogoths/eastern Goths. This theory is based on a historic chronicle from Thomas the Archdeacon called Historia Salonitana where he mentions Croats as Goths. Also, Slavs in the area of modern Croatia are equated to Goths as barbarian people who came from the east in the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja, in which is also reported that the Goths had come to receive the high name. The Croatian identity had some attraction to them as also to rulers.[5] The receiving of a shared identity through pilgrimage was a basic tradition in the Graeco-Roman and early Christian antiquity.[6] Aquileia was since the 4th century an important pilgrimage center, but it was destroyed in the 5th century by Attila who used the pilgrimage routes to come to Aquileia, but the pilgrims came again.[7] John of Ephesus used the term "Slavonians" and those, who are called "Avars" because of their long hair, had risen up against the powerful Empire of the Romans. He described this in connection with the death of Justin II and furthermore he reported that therefore it became necessary to enlist the barbarian people from the west, called Goths, under the banner of the Roman Empire. Patrick Amory described that it is not likely that the grouping of the Goths would have had a common ethnicity based on common ancestors.[8] A "Godišnik" was a laborer, servant, who was rented to one year.[9] John of Nikiū described how Vitalian (general) was opposed by Marinus, who took all ships he could find and manned them with a large force of Scythian and Gothic archers and sailed in the direction of Byzantium, but he took to flight and the sailors sailed then to Dalmatia, where the origin of the word Župan was described in the year 1250 in a manuscript on Glagolitic alphabet on the island of Brač, because Croats are not only inhabitants of Croatia, they are also inhabitants of a župa.



    Some more stuff I found

    Second is ''Gothic theory'' - theory that believes that Croats are of Germanic origin, the precise origin are the great Germanic tribes of Goths. Gothic theory is based on reports from medieval sources that Croats were called Goths. This thesis is widely supported by the Polish sociologist Gumplowicza who believes that the Slavs are allegedly "incompetent" to create their own state so they need the ''guidance'' of Germans.

    Glagolitic alphabet --The roat alphabet used in church books is thought by some to come from Gothic runes

    what the Goths are for the Croats, the Franks are for the French. The enormous excavations in Croatia, particularly in Bosnia and Dalmatia (from the time of the Roman Empire: "Illyricum Superior" or "Dalmatian Romana," between the rivers Sava and Drina and the Adriatic Sea, are rich with remnants of the Illyrian and Gothic culture, which again prove the above-mentioned ethnogenesis.

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/wagner/wagner10.htm

    The Nazis later made an exception to the policy of viewing Croats as Slavs upon the prompting of Croatian Ustase leader Ante Pavelic of the Axis puppet state in Croatia, who claimed that Croats were primarily the descendents of the Goths and thus had stronger Germanic roots than Slavic roots.

    Rich, Norman (1974). Hitler's War Aims: the Establishment of the New Order, p. 276-7. W. W. Norton & Company Inc., New York.

    According to Thomas the Archdeacon, the Goths who settled in this area were referred to by some as Sclavi(ni) as well, while Thomas also called them Croats. His “Gothi et nichilominus Sclavi” completely correspond to the designation “Gothi qui et Sclavi” made by the Priest of Duklja (Presbyter Diocleas).
    Last edited by Germaid; Wednesday, June 20th, 2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: multiple posts merged
    Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
    Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
    Where is the hand on the harp-string, and the red fire glowing?
    They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
    The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.

  3. #113
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    If there were any Gothic blood in Croatia, it would have to be fairly miniscule. (When I say Goth I am specifically speaking of the Ostrogoths)

    I have just finished reading Thomas Hodgkin's Theodoric the Goth, I highly recommend it. But on topic, the Goths were a semi-nomadic sort of people. And of course, they couldn't number much anyway if they were able to pack up and move country so often, eg. coming from modern Ukraine area to settle in the north of the Eastern Empire, then moving to the Yugoslavia area, then through Greece, until finally invading Italy.

    When the Goths went to war, every man went to war, and every man brought his family with him. So the Gothic invasion of Greece was literally the entire immigration of almost all the Gothic nation into Greece.

    Now when Justinian launched his reconquest of Italy, against the Goths, King Witgis was able to bring forth 150.000 Gothic soldiers (aka the male population of age), almost all of these soldiers were annihilated in futile attempts to recapture Rome from the magnificent General Belisarius. That is more than 2/3 of the male population of the Goths who perished in one siege.

    The Goths then surrender, and were allowed to live in the northern parts of Italy. Belisarius then had to return to Constantinople in order to manage the new war against the Persians. While this happened, the Goths were able to recapture all of Italy and Sicily with ease.

    Justinian then sent Belisarius (after the Persian war) back to Italy in order to recapture the lost territory. The new King of the Goths, the first great one since Theodoric, King Totila, lost Rome in a moment of folly to Belisarius. He then besieged Rome, but this is the important point, he was only able to raise an army of 10.000 Goths. Thus the Gothic nation's male population was absolutely pathetic.

    Some quotes from the book on this:

    Page 329
    He marched southward with a large army, which is represented to us as consisting of 150,000 men, and in the early days of March he was already at the other end of the Milvian Bridge, about two miles from Rome.
    Page 336-337
    The truce, as will be easily understood, brought no alleviation to the sufferings of the Goths, who were now almost more besieged than besiegers, and who were dying by thousands in the unhealthy Campagna. Before the end of March, 538, they broke up their encampment, and marched, in sullen gloom, northwards to defend Ravenna, which was already being threatened by the operations of a lieutenant of Belisarius. The 150,000 men who had hastened to Rome, dreading lest the Imperialists should escape before they could encompass the City, were reduced to but a small portion of that number, perhaps not many more than the 10,000 which, after all his reinforcements had been received, seems to have been the greatest number of actual soldiers serving under Belisarius in the defence of Rome.
    Page 353-354
    What Witigis with his one hundred and fifty thousand Goths had failed to accomplish, an army of not more than a tenth of that number had accomplished under Totila.
    King Totila won the siege, but Justinian sent another army under a eunuch of his court to recapture Italy for a 3rd time, and succeeded. The Gothic army was soundly beaten, and Totila died from fatal wounds.

    Page 368:
    A gallant stand was made by Teias, who was elected king on the death of Totila, but his reign lasted only a few months. He was defeated and slain early in 553 at the battle of Mons Lactarius, not far from Pompeii, and the little remnant of his followers, the last of the Goths, marched northward out of Italy and disappear from history.
    Any Gothic influence on the Italian or Croatian population would be extremely minor.

    Here's the book for anyone who wishes to read it, http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/20063

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkar View Post
    Northern Italy. There are still several dialects over there, and most of the people look far more brigther then then the people at Naples.
    You can see it in the Economy too. The richest areas had more Germanic influence then the poor areas.
    BTW: Why don't we include Lombardic as Ancestry? i think we exclude the Germano-Italians
    This is a whole can of worms. Sure, one can sit there and claim Northern Italy as Germanic, but those Northern Italians are simply Italians to them and their family.

    The trouble is using the logic against Germanic countries. Would you like to see some Ires, Scots and Welshman claim Switzerland and Southern Germany as Celtic? What about claiming Eastern Germany as Slavic? Or saying Austrians are just 'Carinthian Slavs' (I have heard this)? Then we say 'Russians are just slavicised Tartars and Finno-Ugrics', then 'Slovaks are just slavicised Magyars', then etc! Do you think these people are really going to drop everything and claim some ancient ancestry?

    Bavarians, you are now a Celtic nation! (Sarcasm)


    The trouble is that 'Germanic' is not a race in any case, nor is 'slavic' or 'Latin/Romance', these are simply cultural-linguistic terms. The races of Europe are Nordic, Alpine, Dinaric, Mediterranean and Baltic. It just so happens that some cultural groups eg. Germanics, have a higher occurrence of one sub-race than other cultural groups.

    So, for a prime example, the man in Switzerland is Germanic, and so is the man in Norway, yet they may be different sub-race-wise. You will see that Slavs, eg. Russians, are very different to other Slavs, such as Croatians, yet they are both Slavic; the only difference being the percentage of whatever sub-races prominent in their nation's racial stock.

    Do you see more similarity between a Florentine and a Neapolitan or a Florentine and a Bavarian, culturally speaking? Do you think Switzerland is more similar to Germany, or Ireland?

    It is quite an insult to the pride of another nation to attempt to steal their cultural identity from them. Just tell some Bavarians that they're really Celts

    ___

    I wouldn't say that North Italians are brighter because they're more Germanic. I would say North Italians are brighter because their region was not racially raped by invading Saracens, various slaves from the Empire period, and various other non-white conquerors.
    Last edited by Germaid; Wednesday, June 20th, 2012 at 01:31 PM. Reason: multiple posts merged

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    Having an upper class of Germanics or even only being loosely part of a kingdom founded by Germanic warriors hardly makes everyone in that realm Germanic, let alone their modern descendants.
    By the same reasoning you could argue that all of the countries which are shown as being ruled by the Huns were in fact predominantly populated by Huns and therefore the modern populations of these places are likewise of Hunnish extraction.
    Good thing I never argued any of those notions, then.

    Still, I do believe there's a presence of Gothic ancestry in the Croatian population, just as there is Norse ancestry in the British population. No one would ever think of denying the latter, but if the former notion is forwarded, it is all of the sudden ridiculous, just beacuse they're Balkanic..?
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    I believe we've had another thread about the Croats and their genetic background, which basically came to the conclusion that Croats are predominantly Balkan natives who have small Gothic admixture but mainly tend to identify with "the West" due to them being under the Austro-Hungarian Empire for such a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Still, I do believe there's a presence of Gothic ancestry in the Croatian population, just as there is Norse ancestry in the British population. No one would ever think of denying the latter, but if the former notion is forwarded, it is all of the sudden ridiculous, just beacuse they're Balkanic..?
    I don't deny that Croats have small Gothic admixture. It does become absurd, however, if they use this Gothic heritage to claim they are Germanic and somehow vastly different from their Balkan neighbors. It's an indisputable fact that a Croat has genetically more in common with a Serb than with a Scandinavian, no matter what nationalistic theories they come up with.

    Neither do I agree with Hitler's idea that merging Croats into the German population would be a good thing - but then again, I disagree with Hitler on many things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Žoreišar View Post
    Well, I posted it somewhere that this picture doesn't seem correct. The Huns only ruled the lowlands and river valleys of the Carpathian Basin and the Ukrainian Steppes. They never ruled all these countries as a coherent empire.


    Probably all the places of Europe is Germanic influenced historically, but without mass migration these influences just stay the forgotten stages of the history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    I don't deny that Croats have small Gothic admixture. It does become absurd, however, if they use this Gothic heritage to claim they are Germanic [...]
    I don't understand why that point keeps popping up. No one, to my knowledge, has ever stated such a thing in this thread.
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    I see clear parallels between Scotland and Bavaria, Ireland and Austria, Brittany and Bohemia. All of these were originally Celtic, but progressively became Germanic and integrated in the first two cases, then satellite states in the next two cases, followed by assimilation among non-Germanics in the surrounding regions. There are obvious correlations between England and Germany, with respect to a common Celtic relationship.

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    As a Finland's citizen (as well as Sweden's ....dual nationality)....and as this thread includes quite a lot talks about Finns/Finland....I like to say something.

    Finns are not Germanic, but they interestingly
    A.) values same things....''enough''.
    B.) behaves same (logical organized) ways....''enough''.

    They do those much more than any slavics or southern European (Indo European) ethnics....those which are genetically much closer to Germans than Finns. So that is actually someway interesting (why it is so?) Anyway....those are exactly the cornstones why Finland has been also quite successfull country in Europe (despite of it's hard/unfair history or lack of raw materials).

    Totally another discussion is why I1 halpogroups is quite common in Finland (which is about 3000 years old). First signs of humans are 11 000years old in Finland (immediately after last Ice Age), the first marks of Finno Ugric language are much much newier. Plus if we even mix Samis, Scandinavians, plus facts that Finland's population has went down very dramatically (very small) atleast couple of times in history .... the soup is ready.

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