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Thread: Countries with a Germanic Influence?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    Agreed, Finland arguably is one of the most Germanic influenced non-germanic countries together with Ireland. As you said the legistlation and institutions are directly based on Swedish tradition. However, one thing worth mentioning, time after time I encounter remarks about Finland and it's Swedish influence during the middle-ages. It's actually pretty damn frustrating, middle-ages played relatively minor role in shaping etnic-Finnish genepool. During the Bronze age and Iron age (1500-100BC) the whole western parts of the country was settled by Scandinavian raiders, these folk just became finnicized and eventually had to adopt to the Fenno-Ugrian language. These population movements had significant impact on Finnish population. Middle-age together with 800 years of Eastern part of Sweden (Österland) and Fennoswedish minority does not come even close to Iron-and Bronze age in terms of shaping etnic-Finnish etnogenesis, culturally however, the middle-ages obviously shaped the contemporary Finland entirely.

    (See study, http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=930)
    Indeed, the prehistoric germanic influence is genetically greater than the later. Also the place names and substratums in especially western dialects clearly show a large influx of germanic influence. For example some of the names of the oldest towns like Ulvila are germanic. Also the very common -la suffix in place names is thought of to be a germanic loan. The satakunta area is also thought of to have been in a union or a part of germanic tribes on the western side of the gulf of bothnia and got it's name from that. What's really frustrating is the fact that info about prehistoric Finland and it's ethnogenesis is so lacking and mostly based on etymology.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    countries such as Poland & France and regions such as Tyrol have received Germanic input to their genepool in varying degree, however this not yielded any fundamental changes in their respective cultures.
    Even if it is crossed by an international border, this doesn't change the fact that Tyrol is totally and unmistakably Germanic.

    The rest of northern Italy may of course be said of having received some Germanic input to its genepool, "while not yielding any fundamental changes in its culture". In fact, so called Gallo-Italic northern languages are certainly of Romance derivation, even if filled with Celtic legacies and Germanic borrowings dating from the Völkerwanderungen (exactly like French, but more Lombard than Frankish influenced).

    But Tyrol has been for centuries a German speaking area, and having some southerners brought there during fascism for 'italianization' doesn't compromise this. That's why all that fuss (a justified fuss) claiming Südtirol ist nicht Italien.

    One should only not confuse Tyrol proper with the Romance area of Trentino, sometimes called Welschtirol by Germans - the blue part in this map. The rest of the map is the German-speaking area, with the red belonging to Austria, and the orange controlled by Italy since 1918.

    I don't know why a Germanic should deny Tyrol its proper status (after having rightly claimed it since it had been occupied), but far from being wickedly exploited by the government of Rome - as I've read from somebody here - in the last several decades that province has received a flood of money to keep it contented with the current situation. As Tyrolean indipendentist Hans Stieler put it, "they've bought our souls".

    No aware taxpayer should object to its restitution - since we've got far heavier financial burdens which should also be dealt with... :p

  3. #23
    Senior Member Kurtz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    Anyway, the only correct answers to this question of Germanic influence on a non-Germanic country (not only to some specific regions) is

    1. Finland & Ireland (Both countries even have Germanic language as official language)

    2. Estonia (Iron age Scandinavians together with middle age Teutonic knights and minor Danish input)

    countries such as Poland & France and regions such as Tyrol have received Germanic input to their genepool in varying degree, however this not yielded any fundamental changes in their respective cultures.
    1) A big LOL for Estonia! Estonians, being fully Teutonic, ended up being a Baltic speaking country with a fully Baltid racial composition?

    2)
    Disclaimer: I do not claim France is Germanic or should have in any way a place here.

    I don't have a clue for Poland. But France, if you take the French republic as a whole (which is 100% illogical since there is so much regional and subracial diversiy),probably had and has more cultural Germanic influence than Germanic genetic influence. And overall, the Germanic element in both race and culture is probably as high as Finland.

    France was ruled until 1789 by a racially Germanic aristocracy speaking a Gallo-Roman language. The french State was founded by Germanics. Many regions of France have heavy Germanic influence (Elsass-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine, Normandie, Picardie, Nord): Germanic influence as in influence in folk culture, architecture, folk character, traditions, etc. Folk tales from Normandy or Elsass are much closer to German folk tales than Basque legends, or Occitan stories. There is something else to consider: French is an Indo-European language, Finnish is not. It makes de facto French, on a purely linguistic level, closer to any Germanic language than an originally asiatic speech like Suomi.

    France history (I could go on for hours on this, but I won't) is closely intertwined with German, Belgian, English and Swiss history.

    Please explain to me how Finland is incredibly more Germanic-influenced than France (at least the northern half, formerly called the Langue d'Oïl regions), so much more influenced that it deserves the title of Germanic-influenced while France (and Tyrol, but this one is just ludicrous) does not. Just saying the the Finns were ruled by the Swedes is not enough, I fear, Peter. Iron age migrations neither, sadly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    1) A big LOL for Estonia! Estonians, being fully Teutonic, ended up being a Baltic speaking country with a fully Baltid racial composition?
    My pleasure to deal with cognitively challenged people! I always forgot I have to explain things throughly incase of the 8 year olds popping in, Estonia is a Fenno-Ugrian country, linguistically purely Fenno-Ugrian, the Estonian etnogenesis has been significantly under the influence of Scandinavians in the Iron-Age and by the Middle-age Teutonic knights. Unlike in France this can easily perceived in the phenotype of many Estonians. Your "Fully Baltid racial composition" remark reveals pretty much the intellectual level of your post. BTW Estonia is not a Baltic-speaking country.

    I don't have a clue for Poland.
    Not a big surprise

    But France, if you take the French republic as a whole (which is 100% illogical since there is so much regional and subracial diversiy),probably had and has more cultural Germanic influence than Germanic genetic influence. And overall, the Germanic element in both race and culture is probably as high as Finland.

    France was ruled until 1789 by a racially Germanic aristocracy speaking a Gallo-Roman language. The french State was founded by Germanics. Many regions of France have heavy Germanic influence (Elsass-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine, Normandie, Picardie, Nord): Germanic influence as in influence in folk culture, architecture, folk character, traditions, etc. Folk tales from Normandy or Elsass are much closer to German folk tales than Basque legends, or Occitan stories. There is something else to consider: French is an Indo-European language, Finnish is not. It makes de facto French, on a purely linguistic level, closer to any Germanic language than an originally asiatic speech like Suomi.
    Yup, France has been under Germanic influence.



    Please explain to me how Finland is incredibly more Germanic-influenced than France (at least the northern half, formerly called the Langue d'Oïl regions), so much more influenced that it deserves the title of Germanic-influenced while France (and Tyrol, but this one is just ludicrous) does not. Just saying the the Finns were ruled by the Swedes is not enough, I fear, Peter. Iron age migrations neither, sadly.
    First, this is not a competition, a French would slap you in face for "degrading" his country. France is a country with only one national language and purely based on Romance tradition. Northern France and Tyrol are obviosly influenced by Germanic people and deserve a notion but in the case of France it has not changed anything, apart from the very Northern regions most of you guys still look like dark and hairy dwarfs who cannot be confused to Northern Europeans.

    Like said, Finland is a Germanic country! Finland has a non-Germanic majority like South-Africa, that's correct, however It's not a long ago when Finnish language even gained official status. The official language of Finland is Swedish, the political and govermental institutions are directly based on Germanic heritage, just like the our faith: Lutheran Protestantism. Besides even the non-Germanic majority has significantly altered by Scandinavian input as I've proved with genetic studies. So, Kurtz I am afraid it's indeed enough to say that Finland was part of Sweden and Iron-age migrations played significant role. To claim the contrary would make you look only more idiot than you already are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
    2)
    Disclaimer: I do not claim France is Germanic or should have in any way a place here.

    I don't have a clue for Poland. But France, if you take the French republic as a whole (which is 100% illogical since there is so much regional and subracial diversiy),probably had and has more cultural Germanic influence than Germanic genetic influence. And overall, the Germanic element in both race and culture is probably as high as Finland.

    France was ruled until 1789 by a racially Germanic aristocracy speaking a Gallo-Roman language. The french State was founded by Germanics. Many regions of France have heavy Germanic influence (Elsass-Lothringen/Alsace-Lorraine, Normandie, Picardie, Nord): Germanic influence as in influence in folk culture, architecture, folk character, traditions, etc. Folk tales from Normandy or Elsass are much closer to German folk tales than Basque legends, or Occitan stories. There is something else to consider: French is an Indo-European language, Finnish is not. It makes de facto French, on a purely linguistic level, closer to any Germanic language than an originally asiatic speech like Suomi.

    France history (I could go on for hours on this, but I won't) is closely intertwined with German, Belgian, English and Swiss history.

    Please explain to me how Finland is incredibly more Germanic-influenced than France (at least the northern half, formerly called the Langue d'Oïl regions), so much more influenced that it deserves the title of Germanic-influenced while France (and Tyrol, but this one is just ludicrous) does not. Just saying the the Finns were ruled by the Swedes is not enough, I fear, Peter. Iron age migrations neither, sadly.
    I must admit that my knowledge of the provinces of France and their regional differences is regrettably small. However, during it's rich history France has been influenced by a large number of cultures. Apart from admittedly a large influence from the Germans the romans left a lasting imprint aswell as the celts and basques. The host language is quite irrelevant in this case since we are talking about germanic influence not relativity. There are propably lot more germanic influences in finnish language than in french. Finland has gotten most of it's culture from iron age germanics and balts and later on from the Swedes. Some novgorodian influence can be seen in Karelia but that's pretty much it. The bureaucratical machine and legislation is based on old germanic folk customs with some modern trinkets from roman law and german scholars etc. There isn't even much knowledge of preswedish finnish culture because it was pretty much wiped out and replaced with swedish customs and christianity as the old ways were thought to be pagan and thus needed to be eradicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    Like said, Finland is a Germanic country!
    I disagree with you and quite supposedly the majority of the members of the forum disagrees too.

    Finland has a non-Germanic majority like South-Africa, that's correct
    ...Or perhaps Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) would have been more efficient comparison? 0000:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissu View Post
    I disagree with you and quite supposedly the majority of the members of the forum disagrees too.

    ...Or perhaps Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) would have been more efficient comparison? 0000:

    You may disagree as much as you like, so far when you haven't provided any information with historical and scientifical value in contradiction to mine, I beg you to shut your mouth! Is that too much to ask?eyes: Anyway, do not get confused, there's no way I'd think you are Germanic but the country definitely is.

    BTW I though messages without any serious content are not allowed in this forum and particularly not in this sub-forum.

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    I guess that the entire "this country is Germanic- that country is not"-kinda thinking is actually dumb.
    My personal assumption is that vast area's of Europe are cultural crossroads.
    For instance all of Belgium, Northern France and Brabant are crossroads of the Latin culture of France and the Germanic culture of the Netherlands... and so is Limburg in respect to the Germanic culture of Germany, the Netherlands and the Latin culture of France.

    You'll find the same thing in the Alsace-Lorraine (French and German.. and bi-lingual), and in Brittany (Celtic and French), Normandy (a beautiful mixture of ancient Scandinavian, ancient and contemporary French and a pinch of English).

    Finland IMHO is Germanic, not because a percentage of the population speaks Swedish or because a portion of them share Germanic blood: but because of their culture and the fact that they are a cultural door to Eastern Europe and Sweden alike. They have been Swedi-fied over the years and are a Scandinavian nation like the others. Actually I think that the cultural crossroads are far more intresting (and far more vulnerable.. and should be protected with greater force) then the monocultural/linguistic nations in Northern Europe. Places like Brabant and Limburg, Belgium, the United Kingdom (Celtic/Anglo-Saxon/Norman/Germanic), Normandy, Alsace Lorraine are being held together by a delicate culture that consists out of multiple influences: a balance that can easily be broken by one dominant culture or a foreign invading culture.




    Before people start ranting.. let me give you a few Brabantian expressions that indicate French/Spanish influence:


    nondeju (basicly meaning dammit): Nom de Dieu (For Gods' Sake !)

    Sinjoor (Antwerp- meaning gentleman or in there dialect "citizen"-one who is born from Antwerp parents): Señor/Senyor (Spanish and Catalan)

    pagadder (Antwerp- meaning small child or a person born in Antwerp - roughly within the city walls-to non-Antwerp parents): pagadores (a pagadore was a Spanish tax administrator acting on behalf of the King, they were usually to small to fight in case of an attack: hence the reason why it is also being used to indicate small children.

    Of course: the more to the south that you go, the more French words you'll find and the more you go to the north, the greater the Hollandic influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lögsögumaður View Post
    I guess that the entire "this country is Germanic- that country is not"-kinda thinking is actually dumb.
    My personal assumption is that vast area's of Europe are cultural crossroads.
    For instance all of Belgium, Northern France and Brabant are crossroads of the Latin culture of France and the Germanic culture of the Netherlands... and so is Limburg in respect to the Germanic culture of Germany, the Netherlands and the Latin culture of France.

    You'll find the same thing in the Alsace-Lorraine (French and German.. and bi-lingual), and in Brittany (Celtic and French), Normandy (a beautiful mixture of ancient Scandinavian, ancient and contemporary French and a pinch of English).

    Finland IMHO is Germanic, not because a percentage of the population speaks Swedish or because a portion of them share Germanic blood: but because of their culture and the fact that they are a cultural door to Eastern Europe and Sweden alike. They have been Swedi-fied over the years and are a Scandinavian nation like the others. Actually I think that the cultural crossroads are far more intresting (and far more vulnerable.. and should be protected with greater force) then the monocultural/linguistic nations in Northern Europe. Places like Brabant and Limburg, Belgium, the United Kingdom (Celtic/Anglo/Norman/Germanic), Normandy, Alsace Lorraine are being held together by a delicate culture that consists out of multiple influences: a balance that can easily be broken by one dominant culture or a foreign invading culture.
    Good post! Finns themselves have not created any forms of culture worth mentioning, however owing the it's great political and educational institutions of Germanic tradition the country is one of most succeful countries on earth who dominates the globe from homosexual pornography to Formula 1:p
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_of_Finland and everything in between.

    BTW It would be nice to know about Germanic input on Irish in details. The Danes obviously went there but I wonder how big is the current English admixture on contemporary Irish.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    My pleasure to deal with cognitively challenged people! I always forgot I have to explain things throughly incase of the 8 year olds popping in, Estonia is a Fenno-Ugrian country, linguistically purely Fenno-Ugrian, the Estonian etnogenesis has been significantly under the influence of Scandinavians in the Iron-Age and by the Middle-age Teutonic knights. Unlike in France this can easily perceived in the phenotype of many Estonians. Your "Fully Baltid racial composition" remark reveals pretty much the intellectual level of your post. BTW Estonia is not a Baltic-speaking country.
    My pleasure to deal with some kind of mixed up Finnish-Finlandssvensk-Nordicist-non-Nordicist-Swedish-non-Swedish northern Cro-Magnid from whom I suffer many doubtful contributions on several forums.

    So your point is that Estonia has been under Germanic rule or influence, right? Then I definitely agree, but it brings us back to your exclusive claim of Germanicness. There are certainly countries as or more Germanic-influenced than Estonia, right? Not only Finland.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    Not a big surprise
    If this was intended to "hurt" me, I am truly sad to inform you of your failure.

    I know next to nothing about Poland because I don't actually care about countries that far from Western Europe, where my ancestors lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    Yup, France has been under Germanic influence.
    It may be my language-freak mind, but do you consider that there is a difference between being influenced or being under influence?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    First, this is not a competition, a French would slap you in face for "degrading" his country. France is a country with only one national language and purely based on Romance tradition. Northern France and Tyrol are obviosly influenced by Germanic people and deserve a notion but in the case of France it has not changed anything, apart from the very Northern regions most of you guys still look like dark and hairy dwarfs who cannot be confused to Northern Europeans.

    Like said, Finland is a Germanic country! Finland has a non-Germanic majority like South-Africa, that's correct, however It's not a long ago when Finnish language even gained official status. The official language of Finland is Swedish, the political and govermental institutions are directly based on Germanic heritage, just like the our faith: Lutheran Protestantism. Besides even the non-Germanic majority has significantly altered by Scandinavian input as I've proved with genetic studies. So, Kurtz I am afraid it's indeed enough to say that Finland was part of Sweden and Iron-age migrations played significant role. To claim the contrary would make you look only more idiot than you already are.
    Several things:
    1) If a French would slap me in the face for degrading his country (which is most likely false, since France indeed is a cross-point between Roman and Germanic Europe, with a Gallic racial basis), I wonder though if a Finn would slap me for telling him his country is Germanic, and even worse Swedish! I'm pretty sure Finns as a whole do not feel at all that comfortable admitting foreign rule, as much as my French-Canadian folks do not like to be reminded they have been incorporated by force in a Anglo-British political ensemble.

    2) Official languages is a matter of law. Exclusively a legal issue. If tomorrow French would consider vote a bill who'd consider German (for Elsass-Lothringen), Breton (Britanny), Occitan (Southern France), and Basque as official languages, would it make the country more Germanic, more Celtic, more Romance and more Basque all of a sudden?

    3) Since you seem to admit regional differences, then why do you still consider France as a whole monolithinc country, while it is not? No matter how centralized France is since Louis XIV, there are still genuine and obvious regional cultures and differences.

    5) Who are you talking about with your "you guys"? I am a French Canadian with a Norman surnames and roots from Normandie, Picardie et Loire-Atlantique. Not a "French", my ancestors have not been French since they came here, between 1650 and 1700. And you've never seen my pictures, probably, but my phenotype is some light brown-haired and blue-eyed Sub-Nordid or Nordid/CM blend, which would allow me to be mistaken for a Northern European any day.

    4) The "official language of Finland is Swedish" is an insult to the majority of decent Finnish-speaking Finns out there. I wonder why you bring your imperialistic fantasms on a preservationnist board like this. Preservation is not exclusive to the Germanic people, right? So let the Finns have their language official, given that Swedish is indeed protected under law (hence under no clear threat).

    5) Your faith is a coming back to the original Jewish texts, with a removal of all the purely European ceremonials and customs the Church added to the Middle-Eastern basis of Christianity. But we should discuss this Catholic/Protestant issue on another thread.

    6) Finland was part of the Swedish "Empire", not nation, "Empire". You know the concept of an Empire, Peter? You settle in a FOREIGN land to exploit people and resources, and sometime to assimilate the native folks. Sadly for you, but happily for any rational man, Sweden failed to kill the rooted Finnish culture.

    7) I am pretty sure to not be considered an idiot on this board, while your case is much less clear, and not just on The Althing.

    You know the proverb: "It is better to shut up and look like an idiot than opening your mouth and confirming you are one."

    8) I am quite sure most of the board believe that a "Germanic country" can inhabit a non-Germanic majority. Maybe a Germanic State (if you have a very rigid, unorganic definition of a State), but not country.
    "The heavenly motions... are nothing but a continuous song for several voices, perceived not by the ear but by the intellect,
    a figured music which sets landmarks
    in the immeasurable flow of time."

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