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Thread: How is libertarianism more free than another system?

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    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    How is libertarianism more free than another system?

    I don't get Libertarianism.
    As far as I can tell it devolves the functions of the state to corporations, or at best specific individuals.
    How is that better than the individuals and entities within the state doing it? I can see it having no extra advantages and the disadvantage of discoordination.

    Why not feudalism instead? Its the same principle of devolution but its more organic and less mechanical. Actually in truth I think in short order libertarianism would either become a sort of capitalist absolutism or become a less martial feudalism - this is one reason why I don't oppose it (even though I do not personally promote it) because I don't think I'd have that much problem with the latter and I think the former would not last.

    But I don't see how Libertarianism would somehow be more "free" than any other system. I don't understand people defending it on the basis of freedom.

    Ok, people who want to argue that libertarianism causes the people who are in charge to be the best people to be in charge - I can understand that argument, I don't agree (at the moment - I am open to being convinced ) but I recognise it as valid, but the idea that one specific set of rights and privileges = freedom where another set = tyranny, I don't understand that - honestly I think it is possible to be free in any system and possible to be enslaved in any system - its a matter of state of mind.

    I also am suspicious of the idea of replacing the concept of God with "the hidden hand" of the market. I think its a poor substitution however poorly one might think of the concept of God. I am not well read on economics though, I've read a bit of Adam Smith, Ricardo, Keynes, Marx and some general textbooks that's it and would say I only really enjoyed the first two.
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
    H* Like Nana.
    A* Yes, like Nana. Does Nana have a prayer book?
    H* A big fat one.
    A* And are there prayers in it for various occurrences in life? Against storms? Against illness?
    H* Against temptation, against floods -
    A* But not against progress, I suppose?
    H* > I think not.
    A* That’s a shame.

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    Senior Member IlluSionSxxx's Avatar
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    The problem with libertarians is that they are either naieve enough to think most people would behave morally if they had free choice or they're dishonest and have a hidden agenda.

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    Senior Member SineNomine's Avatar
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    Begin by defining what you think libertarianism is.

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    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    Begin by defining what you think libertarianism is.
    Property rights considered the basis of all rights and extremely sacred. No "state" to a minimalistic state that provides an army and maybe a police force. Private sector assumes most functions of the state (infrastructure, administration, potentially defense) and basically take on the same attributes except they have (potentially) competition. There are toll booths ever 10 meters on the road except the roads funded by advertising, those roads have billboards all along them with no letup:p

    Since there has never been a libertarian society its hard to say really much more than that. I don't want to reference sci fi for a defintion but several sci fi books I have read have been based in nominally libertarian societies (Healer by F. Paul Wilson comes to mind for some reason - well mainly for the reason I miss that book and enjoyed it a lot when I had it).
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
    H* Like Nana.
    A* Yes, like Nana. Does Nana have a prayer book?
    H* A big fat one.
    A* And are there prayers in it for various occurrences in life? Against storms? Against illness?
    H* Against temptation, against floods -
    A* But not against progress, I suppose?
    H* > I think not.
    A* That’s a shame.

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    Senior Member Drakkar's Avatar
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    I think libertarianism is just a way of looking at modern developed societies and asking, "why can't it be like this without me paying so many taxes? Why do I have to feel like I am a slave to a government that doesn't treat me with respect? I can do better myself!" It is like Marxism, because it is a drastically different view in how the future will be as opposed to how it is now. However, like Marxism, libertarianism doesn't have a clear future. How will taxes be distributed? Who will pay for what? How can everyone get a job? What will happen to the environment if all regulations cease and private companies and industries thrive? etc.

    To connect it with your question, in theory, libertarianism is supposed to create freedoms that are not here now. But I believe the proponents of full libertarianism do not realize how much they have now, and live under a constant burden of conspiracies and hidden agendas that will supposedly create some sort of world government. But I would say most of them are ruralists who feel like they can live without the government. What it is supposed to do is free tax burdens, and create an extremely limited government that has no foreign ties and where nat'l sovereignty is first.
    The citizen is an individual who does belong to any racial or sexual "group."
    It is an American idea, because it has sprung from the minds of the early founders like Jefferson, and has evolved with the American ruralist spirit.
    It is an idea and a dream, but not a realized one. It's attractive, but unrealistic.

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    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sophia View Post
    How is libertarianism more free than another system?
    It isn't if you have an idea of what freedom is about which differs from the libertarians.

    I don't get Libertarianism.
    As far as I can tell it devolves the functions of the state to corporations, or at best specific individuals.
    How is that better than the individuals and entities within the state doing it? I can see it having no extra advantages and the disadvantage of discoordination.
    According to Max Weber the state can be defined as a monopoly of force.
    For libertarians, who view (initiatory) force as evil, that means that the state is and must always be an evil, despite perhaps a necessary one.

    In contrast to the state, corporations and private organizations in generel are not "evil" per se.

    That's the whole point, I think.
    Evil is something which at best you can tolerate if it prevents worse.

    Why not feudalism instead?
    Feudal property regulary ist not appropriated with means considered legitimate by libertarians.

    In other words: Declaring something your property because "the king said so" or sth. like that is crap.

    but the idea that one specific set of rights and privileges = freedom where another set = tyranny, I don't understand that
    Not?
    Uhm...
    Isn't it the same with a lot of words?
    I mean, there is no real objective meaning of the word "freedom".
    You can mean a lot of things with it.
    For example a certain state of sociopolitical order.
    Would be not really appropriate to call it "apple", wouldn't it?
    "Freedom" is a word which has certain connotations you can use very well to describe the things libertarians want.

    - honestly I think it is possible to be free in any system and possible to be enslaved in any system - its a matter of state of mind.
    Yes and no.
    Depends on the definition.
    A slave may be free, but he's unfree at the same time.
    I see no problem with that.


    Greetings from Germany,
    -jmw-

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    I'm not really fond of libertarianism but I can understand what people see in it. Libertarianism is usually most appealing to those who can have a successful life on their own without needing any government help. They value independence and freedom of choice above everything. It's the individual happiness and luck that counts for them and not the collective. Whereas communism is the extreme form of collectivism, libertarianism is the extreme form of individualism but it differs vastly from the former because it's idealistic in its essence since it heavily relies on abstract and immaterial values like freedom and independence.

    However, the notion that libertarianism will positively change the living conditions for the majority of people is just naive...
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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    Senior Member Elysium's Avatar
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    Someone on this forum awhile ago outlined that Libertarians are often the most Authoritarian people and what they call themselves is often only to the point of "You believe what I believe or you're not part of society" (in this case, rights for everyone except those they don't like).

    Libertarians, I think, are still living in the old world where Governments were always ripping their people off, taxing too high, etc. They have failed to see that this role has been given to corporations who are doing it under a facade and nearly always avoid blame for what they do.

    I don't know. That's just what I've gathered from discussions with Liberatarians.
    Perfection.

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    Senior Member SineNomine's Avatar
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    Sophia, your characterization is for the most part correct. Libertarianism is usually based on self-ownership and from this, the right to property, with all subsequent rights being component rights of property (in so doing the system avoids the incoherence that plagues most rights-theorists, such as Rawls; some leftists have abandoned their previous beliefs and try and use libertarian rights-speak to justify their own systems now.) All this means is that no external authority may claim any right whatsoever to subjugating individuals under its rule. It can accommodate a variety of economic and social systems.

    Its essentially divided into an individualist and collectivist branch, according to how the economy is to be organized. Under the individualist branch are subsumed minarchism, all forms of market anarchism (incl. mutualism, agorism, private property anarchism and the like) and under the collectivist branch forms such as anarcho-communism, -syndicalism and the like. If one, in spite of this, wants a state and is willing to abide its depredations, it is fine by us for them to go live under it; simply do not try and peddle us your (speaking generally) snake oil (especially not state-planned nonsense; economists have thrashed it enough times already.) Thus the overall layout would be characterized by a broad range of systems; those like myself who prefer market exchanges, and the division of capital and labour (to an extent), would opt for the individualist versions. This is typically referred to as 'right-libertarianism'; I do not like the term. I prefer catallarchy, or natural order, or private law society. A final distinction is that both within libertarians and libertarian socialists there is a right/left division corresponding (respectively) to a higher or lower tolerance of social authority. The more conservative branch tends to view social authority as conducive and necessary to preserve liberty.

    I agree with -jmw-'s answers generally.

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    Senior Member Soldier of Wodann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysium View Post

    Libertarians, I think, are still living in the old world where Governments were always ripping their people off, taxing too high, etc. They have failed to see that this role has been given to corporations who are doing it under a facade and nearly always avoid blame for what they do.
    Exactly. They are always the pessimistic people who think "well, the government fails now, it must always fail", as any well informed person knows is not the case.

    As Evola says, Liberalism (not just Libertarianism) has the freedom OF doing something, not the freedom FOR doing something. Which is more important?

    We are born to fight and to die and to continue the Flow
    The Flow of our People


    Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

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