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Thread: Your Opinions on Nietzsche's Overman (Übermensch)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    Your Opinions on Nietzsche's Overman (Übermensch)

    What is known of Nietzsche's conception of the Overman and what are your views regarding this? How is the Overman integrateable with a Racialist outlook?

    Last edited by Moody; Wednesday, May 5th, 2004 at 06:53 PM. Reason: added pic

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    I think it's best to clarify what the Overman (übermensch) is, and I think, possibly, my definition that I posted in the Eternal Recurrance thread is most appropriate. Here follows:

    "Nietzsche's philosophy is best viewed when you see that his entire weltanshauung was built as a philosophy for heroes. The idea of the übermensch is essentially the idea of a free spirited hero, solid yet flexible, sharp and smooth like a razor blade, driven by the will to victory, willing and joyful at the prospect of living one's life over and over again for eternity. This is entirely compatible with preserving individuality, but has no connection with any sort of racial nationalism (as I've suggested a final aim in my first post, towards the end), though Nietzsche was racist (comments about blacks in Geneology of Morals) and did advocate a united Europe, he was thoroughly against the notion of the State, preferring a sort of aristocratic anarchism. Because of this the Marxists have a really hard time pinning him down as an advocate of "bourgeois" morality and he absolutely despised the masses with their slave morality which is the foundation of Marxism."

    Is Nietzsche's Superhuman (I by far prefer that term to "Overman" - it sounds strange, and superman is often confused for that stupid comic book character) integratable with Racialism?.... Yes. But not in the sense the German NS movement wanted it. You cannot build the masses into a collection of Superhumans. There will always be an elite few who naturally become superhuman. They will stand out - they will inevitably be the heroes of the Empire, the model for those who are free spirits to aspire to.

    Yet the Empire is not established yet, is it? Does the Superhuman still work in the racialist framework? Yes, in the revolutionary.

    The Superhuman can be a part of the racialist framework, but it cannot be the foundation of it.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    So according to your thought there cannot be an overcoming of the Masses of Men to Overman status, a sort of Master Race which is the pinnacle of Evolution. I totally see your position and even though I would wish to create a Master Race made of Overmen I find it unattainable.

    The question is, how will Racialists facilitate the appearance of the Overmen out of the Masses and most imporantly out of the Racialist ranks? Also in a Racialist Society how would the development of the Overmen be aided, and by what Institutions and Policies?

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    A point Nietzsche made (or attempted to make) clear in Thus Spoke Zarathustra was that the Superhuman cannot be developed through policies and instututions - he is a spiritual evolution and a physical evolution. The physical evolution is due to selective breeding - Nietzsche says that marriage is only worthwhile when it is dedicated towards a higher creation. The Superhuman, I believe, is going to develop out of the alienated youth subcultures in the West.

    As we know, the European Nationalist/White Power movement has traditionally drawn its youth support from the skinhead subculture. I'm finding a lot interesting about a thread in Stormfront's Youth section, that a lot of WP Youth are, or were, goths. Yes, the youth that dress in black and tend to lean heavily towards the dark side of human nature. In general they despise Christianity as a slave religion and aren't too fond of multiculturalism - the more pale you are, the better you fit in. Of course there's "mesitzo goths" too, but they're not the real goths - they're about as goth as the "Gay Aryan Skin Heads" are, lol. The Goth subculture is focused on the dark side of human nature, mainly - but most goths I've met are quite nice people.

    The point I'm trying to make is that from these alienated subcultures, while the white power movement draws on the skinheads, I think the Goths are going to provide the overmen - because in general, goths are centered on Nietsche's self overcoming. I'm not excluding the possibility you'll get overmen out of the skinhead movement, but I think it's more likely, when the social breakdown occurs, if the white power movement concentrated on the goths as well as the skinheads, the results could be interesting. Blending the two would be more interesting - the goth (unrecognised) focus on self discipline and the skinhead focus on energy, there's the overman.

    You cannot develop an entire mass into an elite - that is simply impossible, unless you've got one smaller mass thrown on a much larger mass - example, whites ruling over blacks in Bharat (to use the term Rahul prefers). The Overman is essentially the warrior-priest aristocrat, if you were to give him a caste. But of course, he has none, as he can turn up anywhere without warning, throw himself into chaos and come out on top or make quite a lot of attention for himself as he goes down - meaning, a Hero or a Martyr.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    I agree with Anarch that any white Overman would be hyper-individualistic. In today's confused world, very likely a large part of that would be in possessing a racialist outlook. Furthermore I doubt a NW could be an Overman. I don't consider the courage of religious lunatics like Osama as constituting Overman status. The Overman, in Nietzsche's sense, could not degrade himself before idols or 'holy' books. That's not to say he wouldn't be spiritual in the profoundest sense. What follow is my two cents' worth.


    What is known of Nietzsche's conception of the Overman?

    He is the personification of 'will to power.' However, all the examples Nietzsche ever gave (Cesare Borgia, Napoleon etc) were merely approximations of something yet to fully evolve. Complete success in imposing a particular value-set over a population would be the only true example. One must die of natural causes as leader of that state to fully qualify. (Even Alexander died in his early 30s, probably through poisoning.)

    What are your views regarding this?

    A very large number of people always believe they are the Overman/messiah. For any movement to harp on the importance of such absolute individualists could be very destabilising.

    How is the Overman integrateable with a Racialist outlook?

    He should be seen as a necessary evil. In any racial utopia, they would be undesirable. Such heroic energies would then be better spent in the more tradional realms of genius: the arts and the sciences. In tumultuous times such as these, wilful types will arise without any sort of mass appeal. The only way of telling if they are the 'real deal' is their level of success.

    I would wish to create a Master Race made of Overmen but I find it unattainable.

    Once a hegemonic Aryan state had been established, politics would hopefully be a rather dull affair. We would want to channel the high intellect of those geniuses into more subtle areas, basically the sciences. An entire nation of genius-level egotists, with an insatiable desire to conquer other humans, would not last very long.

    How will Racialists facilitate the appearance of the Overmen out of the Masses and most imporantly out of the Racialist ranks?

    If he really is the Overman, I doubt he will be 'grown.' All of the great conquerors in history were self-propelled. Opposing life circumstances make them what they are. They had a burning, basically inborn, desire. The folk should simply be prepared. They should aim to recognise him when he arises. They should also resist the urge to attack any foible such an individual may possess. (He may not be pure Halstatt, for example. Shock! Horror!!) The Overman or Overmen would have to be something like Adolf, but better. They would have to succeed.



    Anarch: I too am impressed with the Goths' cultural level. It is certainly the only basically mainstream (compared to skinheads) culture that is allowed to in any way glorify white skin. However I think it's interesting that everyone Nietzsche would consider approaching Overman status, was an actual soldier. The Goths don't generally strike me as fighters.

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    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    Highly interesting guys.

    The Overman (sorry Anarch Superhuman sounds funny to me, Overman sounds more of Overcoming) is basically an Individual which is highly Individualistic, bows to none, follows none, defines his path, imposes his ideals on his life and subsequently on all those he affects, and aims at constantly overcoming the various struggles he faces in life. The Overman does not disdain his fate, but accepts it with a smile and overcomes its negative instances, his fate is not predetermined, he guides himself through it. The Overman despises baseness and he is a Master and a Superior Creation of Nature and his surroundings. He defies any authority other than his own and is a revolutionary and a rebel. He represents the Master, and he is the Elite. The Overman brings about a New Order whenever he appears.

    The question now is, should Racialists develop an Overman on a biological and racial level and then give such a biological Overman the highest possible training and education to allow his intellectual development?

    I understand that Nietzsche's Overman is not programmable and creatable, yet someone that resembles this concept may be intended to be created, and who better than Racialists can provide the world with an Overman? Certainly the Overman must have a strong identity, and Race enters the equation. On a Biological level we might adoperate technologies involving genetic engineering and eugenics in order to herald the arrival of the Racial Overman.

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    Edric: I like that summary of the Overman. I would note that the Overman is one who has above all else mastered his own drives, apart from the need to conquer. It's conceivable that he would use subterfuge and be a master of deception before the time was right to strike. The true Overman would pick his battles. He would often have to pay lip service to authority in preliminary times. He would not be a base or uncouth rabble-rouser, even if there were times he had to act like one.


    'Should Racialists develop an Overman on a biological and racial level and then give such a biological Overman the highest possible training and education to allow his intellectual development?'

    Did you ever see James Cameron's Dark Angel, a SciFi TV series? It had that mestizo Jessica Alba. At the core of that was the attempt of some elite group of humans, that had been selectively bred into existence over thousands of years, to eliminate some genetically developed 'transgenics.'

    Even if we were actually successful in genetically engineering such a physically and mentally superior being, we could not control it. If you failed in training it to one's way of thinking, you would there have your most able foe.

    On a personal note, I am against genetic engineering for anything except the prevention of heritable diseases. Here are my reasons:
    1. It is an insult to our ancestors. They all sacrificed so much to ensure their genetic codes would be passed on.
    2. It would not be all that desirable once we had instituted a eugenics program. We just need the lower orders of white society to stop having massively higher reproduction rates than then the higher elements, who often have few or no children.
    3. If we fulfil our species' destiny and colonise space, an agreement about not consciously altering the genetic code would have to be made. That agreement should be imbued with a religious level of importance. Thus, no matter how many millenia a colony of humans would be separated, we would remain one people.


    I believe this time is, more than any other, likely to be right for the genetic development of an Overman. The mixing of the Aryan subraces to a heretofore unseen extent is seeing the arrival of unusual characters with varying instincts. I feel it is one of those natures, who has not been completely weakened by opposing instincts, that would provide the best genetic ground for the character of the Overman to grow on. Additionally, the latter would probably not have an overwhelming ancestral allegiance to a particular nation. He could take a broader view. I like this quote:

    'The man of an era of dissolution which mixes the [sub]races together and who therefore contains within him the inheritance of a diversified descent, that is to say contrary and often not merely contrary drives and values which struggle with one another and rarely leave one another in peace - such a man of late cultures and broken lights will, on average, be a rather weak man . . . . If, however, the contrariety and war in such a nature should act as one more stimulus and enticement to life - and if, on the other hand, in addition to powerful and irreconcilable drives, there has also been inherited a proper mastery and subtlety in conducting a war against oneself, that is to say self-control, self-outwitting: then there arise those marvellously incomprehensible amd unfathomable men, those enigmatic men predestined for victory and the seduction of others.' (Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil: 200)

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Nietzsche's conception of the Uebermensch or Overman has a prime value in terms of revaluation.
    Even though we be not 'Christians' today, in the main, the Christian residue is still within us; the Overman seeks to expunge this residue completely, and so make us 'Christ-Free'.

    Nietzsche's Superhuman is a purifier - he calls it;
    "The Lightning out of the Dark Cloud".

    Gunther makes a point which is pertinent here;
    "In Christianity the conduct of the faithful before God is freely interpreted by the terms 'humilis', and hence humility, meaning literally 'slave-mind', or 'serving the tribe', is demanded as the essence of religiosity.
    But this is non-Aryan in out-look, an after-effect of oriental religiosity.
    Because he is not a slave before an omnipotent God, the Aryan mostly prays not kneeling nor prostrated to earth, but standing with his eyes gazing upward and his arms stretched out before him".
    [HK Gunther, 'Religious Attitudes' page 22]

    Some will note that this is the posture of the 'Man' Rune as discused in another thread.

    So the Overman is a rediscovery of the "Aryan" within, and therefore - since man is not an island but the result of a chain of generations - also a rediscovery of the noble race.
    A race of Superhumans.
    A Master Race because they were masters of Slave Races.

    So just as Gunther's "Aryan" is his own god or Overman, then so are the "Aryans" the noble race of Superhuman God Men [and women].
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Can the Overman believe in God? I think it's possible - however a revaluation of the nature of "God" (better still, a revised perspective on it) would be desirable. God being something to aspire to rather than to bow like a slave before. That's why I think it's entirely possible to do away with ERS and bring God back into the equation and still hold true to the idea of the übermensch. If God exists (omnipotent, omniscient and eternal being), then everything must be the will of God. Free will would be an illusion (Nietzsche was a fatalist), and chaos crossed with might makes right would be the fundamental metaphysics of the new philosophy.

    Add the historical element, and man is seen as a biological creature (i.e. animal), so a new conception of what man is (personally, I think man is an animal driven by the instinct to survive, self enhance and expand (biologically and politically), combined with a bit of chaos in his mind which prevents absolute, machine-like cause and effect) would be required.

    Moody, I believe ERS renders the entire racialist struggle pointless.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Nietzsche answers your first question when ZARATHUSTRA says that if he believed in gods how could he bear not being a god himself!
    There is no 'god' above the Overman - the Overman IS a god.
    This can relate to pagan euhemerism [i.e., the notion that all gods are really based on once living heroes].

    If by God you mean the omniscient, omnipotent, Designer of the Universe, as you seem to suggest, then this is not commensurable with Nietzsche's vision - not least because such a being would stand above the laws of recurrence.

    To Nietzsche the Universe was a blind, churning mass of matter, working to the principle of the will to power - gods, overmen, men and undermen are just part of that same process.
    It has no goal of evolution other than that of evolution itself.
    Because this matter is finite while time itself is infinite, this matter is DESTINED to recur in unending cyles.

    And this is it; Nietzsche believed in Destiny, rather than in Fatalism. It wasn't that some big book in the above had written all that is to be and to come.
    It is rather that one has to Will one's own Destiny.

    This relates to Tragedy as I have said elsewhere. Sometimes a man can Will his Destiny in vain and yes, he can be crushed by the fickle hand of Fate. But at other times he can Will himself up to godhood and the Superhuman.
    Man has to take this risk if he is to be great.
    In a sense this is similar to your "chaos crossed with might".

    I don't agree that the ERS renders the Racial struggle pointless - if that were true, then Nietzsche's philosophy would be worthless - and it clearly isn't.
    Please tell me why you think that.

    To me, what Nietzsche called the coming "Zarathustra Reich of a Thousand Years" is a matter of Return; a Return that must be constantly Willed by Aryans so that they may enjoy its cyclical Recurrence.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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