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Thread: What Should Be the Punishment for Animal Cruelty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    By a "being" I mean something that has an existence beyond the material; in other words a soul/spirit. A spirit is a "consciousness" if you know what I mean.
    I believe you should prove this theory so please prove that
    - such thing as a soul/spirit exists
    - humans have a soul/spirit
    - animals don't have a soul/spirit

    Thank you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    I believe the death penalty should be the punishment for animal cruelty. People who are cruel to animals are mentally twisted and they pose as much a danger to our communities as serial killers.
    Agreed... it is most of the time the first warning sign that a person is dangerous.
    These people deserve to be locked up for life... far removed from society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lögsögumaður View Post
    Agreed... it is most of the time the first warning sign that a person is dangerous.
    These people deserve to be locked up for life... far removed from society.
    I agree, but I still believe the death penalty is the only way to remove them from society. Prisoners can still be among prisoners, prison staff and they can receive visits. Prisoners can torture the rats or bugs in their cells if they find any. Therefore they still are part of a (small) society.


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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    There's nothing I can see in humans that I don't see in the animal kingdom to some lesser or greater degree.
    You can't see the kind of concept I'm referring to. You might see equivalent behaviour in animals as in humans, but both have quite a physical similarity, with all the functions of the brain etc. However this doesn't mean a human and animal are both "selves" (I know that sounds silly, but I can't think of a better word).

    Be as LIVE. :
    What about trees then?

    I've never really felt my own soul.
    But you are your own soul.

    I doubt I'd even have thought of the concept if I hadn't been hearing about it all my life.
    You'd be no less aware of the reality of it.

    Is soul consciousness?
    Basically, yes. It's the self, or perhaps I could say "conscious self".

    I think my dog is as conscious as I am. She can't conceptualise it as well, but she seems to feel it. She misses me when I'm away, and gets angry when she doesn't get her own way. There is a little Wille zu Macht in there!
    I'm not convinced that my own existence is beyond material at all. Material factors alter it - alcohol, starvation, age. You can see consciousness develop in a baby, and decay in an old man. It's not something apart. To me!
    As I said, I don't think it's really something you can see. How do we know that consciousness "develops" in a baby, for example? I don't think we should necessarily expect to know simply by observing them. I'm inclined to think that babies are more aware than we tend to give them credit for. They just can't express themselves, and don't understand English or any other adult language

    We don't remember being babies (well I don't anyway), but that probably has more to do with inadequate use of memory as a baby.

    It amazes me that you can think that. You probably have spent as much time with dogs and horses as I have, and yet you don't get it. It puzzles me. The only way I can explain it to myself is that you see the world through this very strange (to me) Christian filter, that colours all your perceptions. I was brought up outside of this religion, but not especially dismissive of it, and I don't find such attitudes natural at all, there's nothing 'from first principles' in them for me. So they baffle me.
    Well, it's impossible not to have some kind of filter, some kind of assumption on which to base one's interpretation of data. In your case it's some non-Christian filter, but I don't think one is inherently more natural (in the sense of being a reflex attitude) than the other.

    Conversely, the less human, the more ok it is to torture it?
    I wouldn't put it like that.

    To pull the legs of insects, or do something horrible to worms or whatever still ranks in my moral sensibilities as something highly repugnant.
    But not as repugnant as doing it to a dog or cat, surely?

    I'm obviously not going to execute anyone for it, but it's the same sick tendency that could expand up the 'Chain of Being'.
    Everyone has a perverse tendency in them, which could expand to an excessive degree. Like you were saying about animals and humans, I think it's a matter of quantity, not quality. People who like to cause suffering in creatures don't have a fundamentally different mindset, their perverseness is just stronger than other people's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    I believe you should prove this theory so please prove that
    - such thing as a soul/spirit exists
    - humans have a soul/spirit
    - animals don't have a soul/spirit
    What would you accept as proof?

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    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    There is something Humans have that - at least some animals don't have (I would say even some mammals don't have - although there are animals I suspect do have it some of the time, and sometimes I wonder if all humans do have it). Unfortunately describing that thing is quite hard.
    I don't know if anyone has read Ludwig Klages Geist and Seele - but that goes into some detail on the matter (he calls it Geist, and its not just like the spirit in the most common sense of the term - he also sees it as a bad thing, which is arguable but I am not personally convinced).
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
    H* Like Nana.
    A* Yes, like Nana. Does Nana have a prayer book?
    H* A big fat one.
    A* And are there prayers in it for various occurrences in life? Against storms? Against illness?
    H* Against temptation, against floods -
    A* But not against progress, I suppose?
    H* > I think not.
    A* That’s a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    What would you accept as proof?
    I believe it is provable in scientific terms that to live we need a beating heart. The same way you should prove that there is a soul/spirit inside us and that it doesn't exist inside animals. Something that would be accepted as proof in a court of law.


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    Senior Member IlluSionSxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    What would you accept as proof?
    I don't think a person like Dagna is open to any rational arguments, especially when trying to prove something that goes beyond the mere rational. She appears to be much too closeminded from that, based on numerous experiences with her.

    Further, I have to add that I don't think you can prove the existence of a soul within our current understanding of science. Modern science doesn't contradict nor confirm the existence of a soul, but humanists seem to interpret the lack of evidence for a soul as evidence for the lack of a soul... which is absurd, of course. But if there is a soul, there is no rational reason to believe that animals do not have it.

    Whether animals do or do not have a soul, should be irrelevant in this discussion, though. Also irrelevant should be the attitude of people who torture animals towards humans. Many animal species are individuals with primitive sentient capacities who deserve to be treated with the same respect for life we have for humans. Whether they have a soul or whether animal torturers might treat other humans bad should not play a role in one's judgement on animal cruelty.

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    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlluSionSxxx View Post
    Whether animals do or do not have a soul, should be irrelevant in this discussion, though. Also irrelevant should be the attitude of people who torture animals towards humans. Many animal species are individuals with primitive sentient capacities who deserve to be treated with the same respect for life we have for humans. Whether they have a soul or whether animal torturers might treat other humans bad should not play a role in one's judgement on animal cruelty.
    Indeed. I remember very clearly reading when I was about 8 or 9 something (and I don't remember who said it) which said "what is important is not whether animals can think or have a soul, but whether they can feel".
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
    H* Like Nana.
    A* Yes, like Nana. Does Nana have a prayer book?
    H* A big fat one.
    A* And are there prayers in it for various occurrences in life? Against storms? Against illness?
    H* Against temptation, against floods -
    A* But not against progress, I suppose?
    H* > I think not.
    A* That’s a shame.

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    Senior Member IlluSionSxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sophia View Post
    Indeed. I remember very clearly reading when I was about 8 or 9 something (and I don't remember who said it) which said "what is important is not whether animals can think or have a soul, but whether they can feel".
    ... and animals do feel. Advanced mammals (dogs, cats, horses, ...) feel pleasure, pain and a various range of emotions of the complexity of those of a small human child. We are we to treat them as inferior just because they can't philosophise, write a novel or invent the wheel? 95% of all humans can't do any of those things either

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    I believe the death penalty is necessary because the people who torture animals are cruel and vicious. Why should we spare their lives is the real question.
    Sorry I haven't responded to this. You didn't really answer my question very clearly...

    Why should we spare anyone's life? People have been cruel and vicious towards me with no punishment. Do you think abusive partners (be it men or women) should be executed? What about children who burn ants with glass? How about people who insult others needlessly?

    Quote Originally Posted by IlluSionSxxx View Post
    ... and animals do feel. Advanced mammals (dogs, cats, horses, ...) feel pleasure, pain and a various range of emotions of the complexity of those of a small human child. We are we to treat them as inferior just because they can't philosophise, write a novel or invent the wheel? 95% of all humans can't do any of those things either
    Plants feel pain too. Insects feel. Most things do feel. So are we to treat everything on the same level as us?

    I didn't go to school so a dog could have more rights than I do.
    People turn to poison as quick as lager turns to piss

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