View Poll Results: Can you be a Muslim and be a Germanic preservationist too?

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Thread: Islam & Germanic Identity

  1. #241
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Islam is the Muslims. A religion can't be totally disassociated from its followers, because they're the ones who carry the religion and spread it. The main reason why I'm not fanatically against Christianity is because most Christians in the West are ordinary white folks. Islam is the religion of immigrants, and if Europeans convert to that, they'll be associating with immigrants.
    Islam is not Muslims alone. Islam is submission to the God of the Qu'ran and following the religious tradition. Hypothetically all of the Islamic world could convert to Buddhism and all of Europe could convert to Islam, and the religion itself, the idea, would remain unaffected. It would just shift from a majority of Middle Eastern followers to a majority of European followers.

    Note: this isn't something I am saying I wish to see happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    This black-and-white thinking gets really tiresome. None of us like the modern West, and how it turned out, but that doesn't mean we have to swing to the other ridiculous extreme and support the idea of Islamic theocracy. I have no idea what a "Germanic Muslim nation" would be like, and I really don't want to find out (especially with the position of women in that grotesque religion). At least the modern West, for all its faults, can be improved.
    Perhaps you still aren't understanding what I am saying. I NOT saying I support Islamic theocracy for the West, but that I support the world of tradition, as usually defined by such thinkers as Rene Guenon and Julius Evola, over modernity. An Islamic theocracy is just one example of a society that would more closely approximate the world of tradition when compared to the modern West.

    And while I don't agree with everything regarding Islam and women, I'd say overall I would prefer it to the post-feminist world and the manner in which many Western women comport themselves today.

    I personally don't think the modern West can be improved beyond not being the modern West at all, because modernity is the root cause of all of our problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Yes.
    So what explicitly would make it impossible for a Germanic Muslim to support Germanic preservation (at least on a racial level)? What would be superior in your mind, a Germanic Muslim who supports traditional values and Germanic preservation or a Germanic atheist who supports Marxist values and mass immigration/multiculturalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Because the Koran is made by and for Middle-Easterners, and the majority of Muslims are either Middle-Easterners or culturally Arabized. We're none of those, fortunately enough.
    It wasn't made for Middle-Easterners, it was made for all of mankind (in theory.) Now, I could see where one could argue that culturally Islam is foreign to traditional European culture, but as I mentioned before I suppose it would depend on whether or not traditional European culture is already largely dead and replaced by cultural Marxism.

    I agree that Islam is foreign to the West, but then so is modern culture, and the latter arguably more poisonous in the long run.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    I personally don't think the modern West can be improved beyond not being the modern West at all, because modernity is the root cause of all of our problems.
    I don't want to get into an off-topic debate, but what do you define "modernity" as? Everything after the Enlightenment?

    And while I don't agree with everything regarding Islam and women, I'd say overall I would prefer it to the post-feminist world and the manner in which many Western women comport themselves today.
    Of course you would prefer it.

    So what explicitly would make it impossible for a Germanic Muslim to support Germanic preservation (at least on a racial level)?
    That's all in the realm of theory. I'm talking about reality here - that Islam is the religion of the immigrants, and any Germanic who converts to Islam would be associated with these immigrants and not with other Germanics. And that goes against Germanic preservation, on a racial level and every other level. This has been said a dozen times already in this thread.

    What would be superior in your mind, a Germanic Muslim who supports traditional values and Germanic preservation or a Germanic atheist who supports Marxist values and mass immigration/multiculturalism?
    First of all, a Germanic Muslim is not supporting any values that are traditional to Germanics. So the Germanic Muslim is a promoter of Middle-Eastern poison, just as much as the Marxist who supports multiculturalism.

    It wasn't made for Middle-Easterners, it was made for all of mankind (in theory.)
    All religions are, in theory, for all humans. The reality is that they're made to fit the specific tribe that invented the religion.

    Now, I could see where one could argue that culturally Islam is foreign to traditional European culture, but as I mentioned before I suppose it would depend on whether or not traditional European culture is already largely dead and replaced by cultural Marxism. I agree that Islam is foreign to the West, but then so is modern culture, and the latter arguably more poisonous in the long run
    Even if traditional European culture was dead and replaced by Marxism (which it already is, to a large degree), Islam is still foreign and unwelcome. Any Germanic person who changes her name to Fatimah and prays to Allah should be put in the same "traitor" category as race-mixers and wiggers.

    Perhaps you still aren't understanding what I am saying. I NOT saying I support Islamic theocracy for the West, but that I support the world of tradition, as usually defined by such thinkers as Rene Guenon and Julius Evola, over modernity. An Islamic theocracy is just one example of a society that would more closely approximate the world of tradition when compared to the modern West.
    I'd refer you to this earlier post in this thread, which neatly sums up what I think about the "anti-modernity argument":

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfadur View Post
    Many in the ultra-traditionalist crowd, including Julius Evola (who was otherwise a very smart person), are as besotted with "hippie charm" as any leftist. It's rather pointless to cry about the "soulless Kali Yuga" and yearn for the continuation of the mystery-mongering and religious superstition that is so appealing to the lowest common denominator. It's idiotic, urging us to distance ourselves from all science and reason, and instead suggesting a return to medieval ignorance and taking seriously the mumblings of gypsies.

  3. #243
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    I don't want to get into an off-topic debate, but what do you define "modernity" as? Everything after the Enlightenment?
    In a sense. The intellectual and spiritual climate you can find in the Western world after the Enlightenment and especially in the modern world. Read Guenon and Evola's definition of modernity for a more detailed explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Of course you would prefer it.
    Yes, I would. Feminism has been a destructive force for Western civilization and culture. Really I would prefer to return to traditional European values regarding the sexes, but if I had to choose between the modern post-feminist world and an Islamic society, I would prefer the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    That's all in the realm of theory. I'm talking about reality here - that Islam is the religion of the immigrants, and any Germanic who converts to Islam would be associated with these immigrants and not with other Germanics. And that goes against Germanic preservation, on a racial level and every other level. This has been said a dozen times already in this thread.
    This was a theoretical question regarding European Islam, so of course it is all in the realm of theory.

    In the current environment of Muslim immigration into Europe, you are correct in saying that a person's co-religionists would be immigrants. However, this wouldn't prevent one from supporting ethnic nationalism, deporting non-Germanic people, and being against future immigration from non-Germanic sources. Same reason one could be a Germanic Christian and be against the immigration of African Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    First of all, a Germanic Muslim is not supporting any values that are traditional to Germanics. So the Germanic Muslim is a promoter of Middle-Eastern poison, just as much as the Marxist who supports multiculturalism.
    I think you will find that the traditional values of the Germanic world are more closely found in a conservative Muslim society than the modern culturally Marxist West. The fact that various Muslim societies all have varying degrees of extremism is well worth pointing out as well. In any case, what would prevent one from practicing the Islamic religion and adapting the religion to fit traditional Germanic cultural values (aside from consumption of pork and alcohol)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    All religions are, in theory, for all humans. The reality is that they're made to fit the specific tribe that invented the religion.
    Hardly, or Buddhism would only be appropriate for Indians and be out of place in Tibet, China, Japan, and South East Asia. It would also make Christianity out of place for all of Europe, the Armenians, the Copts, and other historical Christian people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Even if traditional European culture was dead and replaced by Marxism (which it already is, to a large degree), Islam is still foreign and unwelcome. Any Germanic person who changes her name to Fatimah and prays to Allah should be put in the same "traitor" category as race-mixers and wiggers.
    Well I am mostly arguing for the sake of argument here, I agree that preferably the West should not become Islamic. The best course of action would be to rediscover traditional Christianity, but if that cannot be done, we are led back to my original question. What is the next best religion for the West? It certainly isn't a New Age pseudo-religion lacking the light of transcendence like neo-paganism.

    In any case, I think putting a Muslim in the same category as race-mixers and wiggers is a little harsh. Some men seek for enlightenment or spiritual realization, if they cannot find that within their own tradition and were to choose Islam as a means of finding such an enlightenment, then I don't think they are necessarily a traitor for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    'd refer you to this earlier post in this thread, which neatly sums up what I think about the "anti-modernity argument":
    Well if you are a scientific materialist then of course this will be your view.

    There is nothing against science or reason involved in being against modernity or being a radical traditionalist. The ancient Greek and Roman world were traditional societies; were they devoid of science and reason? The medieval world was once a traditional society; were they devoid of science and reason? Anyone who studies history will find these claims to be false.

    In any case, here is an enlightening excerpt from Evola's book on Tantrism regarding modern science that is well worth looking at. The format may come out a bit wacky because this is copied from a PDF.

    As far as the sciences of nature are concerned, we would have
    to go to great lengths to explain the opposition between "traditional"
    knowledge and knowledge of the so-called scientific, modern
    type. This is not just the view of Tantrism, since on this matter
    it followed previous traditions and in the process of developing its
    own cosmology and its doctrine of manifestation it borrowed,
    adapted, and developed their teachings and fundamental principles.

    Briefly stated, here is the situation: According to the modern
    point of view (which in a Hindu perspective would be considered
    to be typical of the most advanced phase of the "dark age"), we can
    directly apprehend reality only through those aspects revealed to
    us by physical senses and by their extension, namely scientific
    instruments, or, according to the terminology proper to some philosophies,
    through its "phenomenic aspects." Positive sciences gather
    and organize data provided by sensory experiences, and only after
    having made a certain choice between them (excluding those with
    a qualitative character and essentially relying on those that are
    susceptible to measurement and "computation") does it inductively
    arrive at some knowledge and laws of an abstract and conceptual
    nature. To them, however, there no longer corresponds an intuition, an unmediated perception, or an intrinsic evidence. Their truth is indirect and conditioned, and it depends on experimental examination,
    which may eventually lead to a reshaping of the previous
    system.

    The immediate connection between this traditional epistemology
    and the main concerns of Tantrism is rather obvious. In fact, in
    this order of ideas, the way to any superior knowledge seems to be
    contingent upon one's self-transformation, an existential and ontological
    change of level, and therefore, upon action, sadhana. This
    conception contrasts with the general view offered by the modern
    world. Modern scientific knowledge, in its technical applications,
    confers to modern man multiple possibilities with impressive consequences
    on the practical and material plane, while leaving him,
    on a concrete plane, at the same level. For instance, if through
    modern science we happen to learn the approximate processes and
    constant laws of physical phenomena, our existential situation has
    still not changed a bit. In the first place, the fundamental elements
    of physics are nothing but differential functions and integrals, namely,
    abstract algebraic entities, of which, in a strict sense, we cannot claim
    to have either an intuitive image or a concept, since they are mere
    instruments of calculation ("energy," "mass," "cosmic constant,"
    "curved space," are nothing but verbal symbols). Second, after we have
    "known" all this, our real relationship with phenomena still has not
    changed. The same applies to the scientist who elaborates knowledge
    of such a kind and even to one who develops innovative technology:
    fire will still burn him, organic modifications and passions will still
    trouble his soul, time will still dominate him with its laws, the sight of
    nature will still not speak to him, but it will mean to him less than it
    did to primitive man. This is because the scientific formation of modern
    civilized man entirely desacralizes the world and petrifies it in the
    ghost of sheer, mute appearances. These appearances, along with knowledge
    of the kind discussed so far, make room only for the aesthetic and
    lyrical emotions of poets and artists, which obviously have no scientific
    or metaphysical value, being merely subjective experiences.

    The prevalent alibi of modern science is the claim to power;
    and that argument, in this context, deserves to be considered, since
    shakti as power, as well as siddhis (namely, powers), plays an important role in Tantrism and related currents. Modern science
    offers the proof of its validity through the positive results achieved,
    particularly by putting at man's disposal such a power that has, so
    it is claimed, no precedents in previous civilizations.

    We are dealing here with a misconception of the term power,
    since no distinction is made between a relative, external, inorganic,
    conditioned power and true power. Obviously, all the opportunities
    offered by science and technology to people of the Kali Yuga
    are exclusively of the first type. Action produces results only because
    it conforms itself to given laws, which scientific research has
    pointed out, laws that action presupposes and obeys to the letter.
    The effect, therefore, is not directly connected to man, to the Self, or
    to his free will, as to its cause; between action and result there is a
    series of intermediaries that do not depend on the Self, and that are
    necessary in order to achieve what one wants. It is not just a matter
    of devices and machines, but of laws, of natural determinism that
    could go this way or that way, unintelligible in its essence; such
    mechanical power, is, after all, precarious.

    In no way does it represent a possession of the Self, nor is it one
    of the Self's powers. What has been said about scientific knowledge
    applies as well: it does not change the human condition, the existential
    situation of an individual, nor does it presuppose or require any
    transformation of that kind. It is rather something added on, superimposed,
    which does not imply any self-transformation. No one claims
    that we show any real superiority when we are capable of doing this
    or that by availing ourselves of any technical means: we do not cease
    to be mere humans, not even as lords of atomic weapons who can
    disintegrate a planet by pushing a button. And worse yet, if as a
    consequence of any given cataclysm people living in the Kali Yuga
    were deprived of all their machines, in the greatest majority of cases
    they would probably find themselves in a worse predicament than
    uncivilized primitives do when facing the forces of nature and the
    elements. That is because machines and technology have atrophied
    their true strength. We may well say that modern man, by virtue of a
    diabolical mirage, has been seduced by the "power" he has at his
    disposal, and of which he is so very proud.

    There is a deep hiatus separating the traditional and the modern
    world. The knowledge and powers pursued by the modern
    world are democratic, that is, available to anyone endowed with
    enough intelligence to achieve, through educational institutions, a
    knowledge of modern natural sciences. It is enough to gain through
    training a certain level of knowledge that does not involve the
    deepest nucleus of one's being in order to be able to correctly
    deploy technological means. A handgun will produce the same
    results in the hands of a lunatic, a soldier, or a great statesman; in
    the same sense, anyone can be transported in a few hours from one
    continent to another. We may well say that this "democracy" has
    been the leading principle in the systematic organization of modern
    science and technology. As we have seen, the real differentiation of
    beings is the condition for an inalienable knowledge and power,
    which cannot be transferred to others; they are exclusive and
    "esoteric," not artificially, but by virtue of their very nature. They
    represent exceptional peaks of achievement of which the whole of
    society cannot partake. What is open to society are only opportunities
    of an inferior kind, precisely those that have been developed in
    the late Kali Yuga, in a civilization that has no correspondence with
    previous ones. In the context of traditional civilizations, besides
    these material opportunities (the paucity of which was due to the
    lack of interest people had in them), artistic activities could be
    pursued by anyone who had any interest in them. Generally speaking,
    they were characterized by various ways of life essentially
    oriented toward higher planes of being. This spiritual climate has been maintained in more than one area until relatively recent times.

  4. #244
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Yes, I would. Feminism has been a destructive force for Western civilization and culture. Really I would prefer to return to traditional European values regarding the sexes, but if I had to choose between the modern post-feminist world and an Islamic society, I would prefer the latter.
    As a woman, I'd say anything is better than an Islamic society.

    In the current environment of Muslim immigration into Europe, you are correct in saying that a person's co-religionists would be immigrants. However, this wouldn't prevent one from supporting ethnic nationalism, deporting non-Germanic people, and being against future immigration from non-Germanic sources.
    Yes, it would prevent one from supporting ethnic nationalism. Islam has wiped out cultures wherever it goes, replacing them with a cultureless Islamic identity. Just ask a Muslim Arab if he'd identify with a fellow Muslim from Nigeria or Morocco, or whether he'd rather identify with an Arab who just so happens to be Christian. You'd be surprised, their feeling of community is based more on their common religion than on their blood, perhaps with the exception of Turkey.

    I think you will find that the traditional values of the Germanic world are more closely found in a conservative Muslim society than the modern culturally Marxist West.
    What traditional Germanic values are those, I wonder? I'll ignore the Muslim traditions I do know about, such as the harem system and stoning women, and instead you can line up the traditions they share with Germanics.

    (I agree that the modern West doesn't have many Germanic values, and actually it lacks values. But that's best left for another thread.)

    In any case, what would prevent one from practicing the Islamic religion and adapting the religion to fit traditional Germanic cultural values (aside from consumption of pork and alcohol)?
    The Muslim religion itself contradicts Germanic values. Islam is not just a religion. It's a culture replacement, since it is a culture-destroying religion which tries to force upon everyone the teachings of their perverse god-state. In many countries, Islam is also the law of the country. The distinction between Islam as a religion, a form of government, a culture, and a legal system are so blurred they're basically non-existent.

    That's one of the reasons why we shouldn't let Islam take root in our countries: long before we become "genetic Arabs" through race-mixing, we would become Arabic on other levels, essentially we'd still be white, but that's about all that would be left: a box filled with the wrong contents.

    Well I am mostly arguing for the sake of argument here,
    That's what you've been doing in the entire thread, yes. It's rather tiresome.

    What is the next best religion for the West? It certainly isn't a New Age pseudo-religion lacking the light of transcendence like neo-paganism.
    Neither is it Islam. I can't see any "light of transcendence" in our Muslim immigrants, either.

    In any case, I think putting a Muslim in the same category as race-mixers and wiggers is a little harsh. Some men seek for enlightenment or spiritual realization, if they cannot find that within their own tradition and were to choose Islam as a means of finding such an enlightenment, then I don't think they are necessarily a traitor for doing so.
    Renaming yourself to an Arabic name and praying to Allah isn't exactly in line with "preservation." Now that Europe is being swamped by Muslims, it's definitely a treason akin to wiggerism or race-mixing if you convert to Islam. Not surprisingly, almost all Muslim converts have also been race-mixers.

  5. #245
    Senior Member Plantagenet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    As a woman, I'd say anything is better than an Islamic society.
    So you would concur that modern feminism and cultural Marxism is better than the conservatism of the Islamic world? It seems to me that this is a view only taking into consideration for what may or may not be good for women alone rather than what is good for a healthy society overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Yes, it would prevent one from supporting ethnic nationalism. Islam has wiped out cultures wherever it goes, replacing them with a cultureless Islamic identity. Just ask a Muslim Arab if he'd identify with a fellow Muslim from Nigeria or Morocco, or whether he'd rather identify with an Arab who just so happens to be Christian. You'd be surprised, their feeling of community is based more on their common religion than on their blood, perhaps with the exception of Turkey.
    There is a strong sense of community and brotherhood within Islam, yes, as there also used to be within Christendom in the West. Even if this is the case, it would not necessitate one supporting racelessness, multiculturalism, mass immigration, or any of the other plagues of the modern West. There is nothing stopping a Muslim in seeing the value in preserving their own unique ethnic group.

    Take for example Arab nationalism and their conflicts with the Turks, their fellow Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    What traditional Germanic values are those, I wonder? I'll ignore the Muslim traditions I do know about, such as the harem system and stoning women, and instead you can line up the traditions they share with Germanics.
    I wasn't specifically saying that the values of the Germanic world match those of the various Islamic people, but that the traditional values regarding sex, marriage, honor, masculinity, families and the like are more closely aligned to a conservative Islamic society than the modern West.

    For example, homosexuality. In the ancient Germanic world homosexuals were drowned in bogs. In the modern Islamic world homosexuals are executed. In the modern culturally Marxist West, homosexuality is mostly accepted and in many cases even promoted at something positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    The Muslim religion itself contradicts Germanic values. Islam is not just a religion. It's a culture replacement, since it is a culture-destroying religion which tries to force upon everyone the teachings of their perverse god-state. In many countries, Islam is also the law of the country. The distinction between Islam as a religion, a form of government, a culture, and a legal system are so blurred they're basically non-existent.
    I think this all boils down to what is the cause of cultural values and culture itself. Some authors like Christopher Dawson in his book "Religion and the Rise of Western Culture" argue that a society's religion and therefore dominant world-view will be the single most power force within a given civilization, the very life force if you will, and the origin of the values that dominate a society.

    If we agree that the traditional culture and values of the West (Christendom) is already dead and replaced by cultural Marxism, the only possible course of action is to change (if we wish to be restored to health.) I am not suggesting Islam is the answer we need, but in the case that it was the course Europe would take, it wouldn't be a contradiction of Germanic values (which are already dead) but a replacement of the cultural values of the Marxist West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    That's what you've been doing in the entire thread, yes. It's rather tiresome.
    In a theoretical discussion based upon a theoretical question, arguing would be an exercise to arrive at some sort of truth, not just being confrontational for the sake for being confrontational. The purpose of my thread was to try to understand how members of Skadi view religion, culture, and society and why the Marxist secular atheism that exists in the West today would be superior to Islam. Or if the neo-pagans would prefer a European Islam over traditional Christianity.

    If such theoretics are tiresome to you, by all means cease to participate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Neither is it Islam. I can't see any "light of transcendence" in our Muslim immigrants, either.
    You are conjoining ethnic group and religion. One is a group of men with various faults and one is an idea or a path. I say again, would a Germanic Christian immigrant be the same as an African Christian immigrant? Apply the same to Buddhism or any other religion. If we can differentiate in this case, why not also with Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigyn View Post
    Renaming yourself to an Arabic name and praying to Allah isn't exactly in line with "preservation." Now that Europe is being swamped by Muslims, it's definitely a treason akin to wiggerism or race-mixing if you convert to Islam. Not surprisingly, almost all Muslim converts have also been race-mixers.
    So a Germanic person's name makes him no longer Germanic? If so Germanic people would have ceased to be Germanic when their names went from Beorhtwulf and Brynhildr to John and Mary. They would have also ceased to be Germanic once Odin was replaced with the Blessed Trinity. If a Chinaman was named Theodric and believed in Odin, would that make him Germanic or stop him from being Chinese?

  6. #246
    Senior Member Olavssønn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    In a theoretical discussion based upon a theoretical question, arguing would be an exercise to arrive at some sort of truth, not just being confrontational for the sake for being confrontational. The purpose of my thread was to try to understand how members of Skadi view religion, culture, and society and why the Marxist secular atheism that exists in the West today would be superior to Islam.
    No, I certainly don't think modern, cultural-Marxist, liberal-secular anti-culture is any better than Islam. But as I explained in my previous post, I would only see a transformation of Europe into an Islamic culture as a continuation of the process of de-Europeanization of our culture, and not a re-vitalization of our natural identity and a cultural flowering based on this.
    If Europe was totally Islamized, I think it would be even harder to return back to a true European culture and identity than today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet View Post
    Or if the neo-pagans would prefer a European Islam over traditional Christianity.
    As I personally tend to favour a belief-system more in line with the pre-Christian Indo-European traditions, I'll answer that question as well.
    If I had to choose between Islam or, let's say, Catholicism, I would choose Catholicism, due to the latters deeper historical roots in Europe.

  7. #247
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    So you would concur that modern feminism and cultural Marxism is better than the conservatism of the Islamic world? It seems to me that this is a view only taking into consideration for what may or may not be good for women alone rather than what is good for a healthy society overall.
    The core problem is Cultural Marxism, a programme designed to be destructive, of which feminism is a part.

    It may surprise you, but "feminism" here means something very different from what it means in America. In America the heroes are cheered like celibrities, here the "heroes" are generally viewed as a bit freaky.

    Even in France meanwhile. It's totally superfluous here, and really no one listens to the nonsense anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Take for example Arab nationalism and their conflicts with the Turks, their fellow Muslims.
    Maybe that's due to the Turkish Imperialism? The Ottoman Empire was dissolved only in 1923.

    Btw, ethnic nationalism was a north European import to the late 19th century Ottoman empire that contributed greately to its fall. More than all the "christian vs Muslim" wars in 6 centuries before.

    The age of empires is over. And thus, the age of religions made for empires.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    If we agree that the traditional culture and values of the West (Christendom) is already dead and replaced by cultural Marxism, the only possible course of action is to change (if we wish to be restored to health.) I am not suggesting Islam is the answer we need, but in the case that it was the course Europe would take, it wouldn't be a contradiction of Germanic values (which are already dead) but a replacement of the cultural values of the Marxist West.
    It would still not be Germanic values if you replace Cultural Marxism with again Christianity or Islam. Both would kill off our Germanic Culture.

    Christianity is dead, and Islam better never takes hold.

    If we have to change, then why not to something truely Germanic?


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    In a theoretical discussion based upon a theoretical question, arguing would be an exercise to arrive at some sort of truth, not just being confrontational for the sake for being confrontational. The purpose of my thread was to try to understand how members of Skadi view religion, culture, and society and why the Marxist secular atheism that exists in the West today would be superior to Islam. Or if the neo-pagans would prefer a European Islam over traditional Christianity.
    I prefer a Germanic Europe with Germanic values.

    There is more, even though you continue to insult the Heathens, than just christianity or Islam. I know you Americans have trouble with the extremism of a third position, but taking the Germanic position is the only viable solution. That means, Europe gets rid off both, christianity and Islam, and the immigrants, whether christian or muslim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    You are conjoining ethnic group and religion. One is a group of men with various faults and one is an idea or a path.
    It's only since the invention of "universal" religions not the same anymore. Or at least, people believe that.

    Ethnicity is the source of culture. The "universal" religions are the master corruption of that.

    But in fact, despite that people believed that culture could be exchanged on random choice, this never really happened. That is why christianity could not fully destroy our culture, because it cannot change who we are by ethnicity. But it can make people believe otherwise, and acting on that belief still creates huge damage.

    Universal religions and Germanic preservation are contradictions, oxymorons in the best (worst) sense of the word. It educates out our Germanicness in favor of cultural relativism.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Maybe that's due to the Turkish Imperialism? The Ottoman Empire was dissolved only in 1923.

    Btw, ethnic nationalism was a north European import to the late 19th century Ottoman empire that contributed greately to its fall. More than all the "christian vs Muslim" wars in 6 centuries before.

    The age of empires is over. And thus, the age of religions made for empires.
    The age of empires isn't over. Look at America, NATO, and Israel today. They are also a cultural empire, trying to force their ideals of democracy, secularism, cultural Marxism, and "freedom" on everyone else in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    If we have to change, then why not to something truely Germanic?
    What would that be?

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    There is more, even though you continue to insult the Heathens, than just christianity or Islam.
    That is because heathenism is a retarded New Age pseudo-religion, whereas Christianity and Islam are both authentic religious traditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    There is more, even though you continue to insult the Heathens, than just christianity or Islam. I know you Americans have trouble with the extremism of a third position, but taking the Germanic position is the only viable solution. That means, Europe gets rid off both, christianity and Islam, and the immigrants, whether christian or muslim.
    Are you obsessed with me being American? You bring it up quite frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Ethnicity is the source of culture. The "universal" religions are the master corruption of that.
    In that case, ethnicity is the source of our distinct Christian culture, is it not? So then should not Western Christianity be supported?

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    Islam is pretty much an open-door belief system, like Christianity or any of the strains of Marxism (i.e. liberal democracy), so saying that it's compatible with something as specific as Germanic preservation is pretty much a moot point. Christianity in many ways adjusted itself to the mentality and spirituality of the Germanic tribes, thus it became Germanic despite what I've seen on the board (the Crusaders fought under the cross, not the hammer ).

    This is just a bit that I can think of.
    'Militia est vita hominis super terram [The life of man upon earth is a warfare] (Job 7:1).'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    The age of empires isn't over. Look at America, NATO, and Israel today. They are also a cultural empire, trying to force their ideals of democracy, secularism, cultural Marxism, and "freedom" on everyone else in the world.
    Yeah, and how is there ANYTHING of value to find there?

    Obviously, these empires are what is damaging us as a people. We should get rid off them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    That is because heathenism is a retarded New Age pseudo-religion, whereas Christianity and Islam are both authentic religious traditions.
    Your ignorance and constant insulting is really annoying. But I tell you what. While Paganism was around for like 10,000 years or so, christianity is a from-scratch fabrication composed 1630 years ago. Its part "authentic religious tradition" is Jewish, adding some stolen bits from other cults fashionable at the time.

    Islam is even worse, it was only invented from scratch ~1300 years ago, not contuing any of the cults present before. When you leave out the moon cult that is said to have lend the name of the female deity that was made into a male Allah. What's left of it is just that name and the moon in many Islamic flags, so it doesnt really count.

    You know nothing, you dont even understand what you're talking about. And you dont want to either. Retarded New Age pseudo-religions, both.




    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    Are you obsessed with me being American? You bring it up quite frequently.
    It's just funny how predictable you people are. And yes, it's a widely shared trait of Americans


    Quote Originally Posted by Plantagenet
    In that case, ethnicity is the source of our distinct Christian culture, is it not? So then should not Western Christianity be supported?
    No, it's not. Its ethnic root lies with the Semitic people, and it also was Semites who distributed christianity and imposed it with the sword.

    The fact that it was part of our history, and even that a portion of the populace believed in it, does not change its alienness. Something being wrong does purely and simple not prevent people from believing it, as can be seen in the religion of multikult, of all men are equal, and all the other nonsense that is disseminated and propagated. Although 90+% of people believe in these things, does that change its inherent falsehood? No, it doesnt.
    Only because something was part of our history is no reason in itself to continue it either. Child labor, immigrants, environment destruction, wars for Israel, you name it. It's all part of our history. Does that mean that we should continue that way? To honor the wrong, retarded or outright traitorous acts of our ancestors?

    You see, we correct errors. At least, we in Europe try.


    Germanic preservation and propagating universal religions and global empires build upon them are incompatible. It's really that simple.
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

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