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Thread: "Notes on Anarchism"

  1. #41
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    So if a large corporation like Walmart or Google developed independent of any state to support it, and had their own police force etc, then that would be ok under 'anarchism'?
    Depends on which subset of Anarchism one belongs to, I think.
    In socialist or communist or collectivist anarchism of course there wouldn't be private corporations at all.
    In a more individualist anarchism and in anarcho-capitalism it could be possible, yes.

    But of course it might be that you wouldn't have big corporations like Walmart at all without the state backing them.
    I mean, what would happen with Walmart or Microsoft or Lufthansa or Deutsche Bank when you reduce their legal status to that of a normal club and take away all the subsidies and declare their patents to be null and void and so on?


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  2. #42
    Senior Member SwordOfTheVistula's Avatar
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    Not enforcing patents would be a bad idea, because it would discourage people from investing any significant amount of time and money into research and development, if anyone could just copy off of them and sell the same thing for cheaper
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    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

  3. #43
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    I'll be blunt: anarchism is for negroes.

    It is in fact the natural state of all sub-Saharan Negroid areas, as well as in all the places they have metastised into: Haiti, Detroit, New Orleans, the suburbs of Paris, etc, etc.

  4. #44
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death and the Sun View Post
    I'll be blunt: anarchism is for negroes.
    This is the the most stupid comment , imo ,to appear in this thread so far and that's saying something.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    This is the the most stupid comment , imo ,to appear in this thread so far and that's saying something.

    I suppose it will be useless to ask you to explain yourself?

  6. #46
    Senior Member IlluSionSxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Apart from the Spanish revolution and the likes of Kronstadt/Petrograd there are not many well known examples of Anarchism in action.
    The problem with anarchism is that it simply doesn't work. It only works on a very small scale (eg. village or corporation), but it fails to work on any regionals, state or federal level. The reason for this, is because larger organisational stuctures require more abstraction and a greater distance between the organisation and the individual. The masses are not capable of grasping the complexity that results from this.

    I understand that anarchists (and national-anarchists) for this reason prefer to avoid any form of authority on levels higher than the local. This, however, inevitably leads to new problems. Without any higher authority, pretty much every village can create its own laws. As a result, something that is illegal in one village would be legal in the next village, with dozens of complications as a result.

    An anarchistic way or life also makes it fairly easy for warlords to arise. Small warlords soon become warmongering imperialists, with dozens of complications as a result.

    To avoid these problems, we need higher authorities than just the local, which makes the anarchistic experiment unfeasible in the long run. That's why there are barely any historical examples of anarchistic societies to begin with.

    For a criticism of the anarchists during the Spanish revolution, I'd like to refer to Orwell's Hommage to Catalonia. As a foreign sympathiser, he fought on the side of the anarchists and experienced their experimental form of civilisation first hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    It has been well documented that the forces of Franco and the Russian Communists from the outset of the conflict sought to destroy the anarchist strongholds. The fact that these two mortal enemies feared anarchism more than eachother speaks volumes for it , imo.
    I wouldn't really draw any conclusions out of this. According to Orwell's Hommage to Catalonia, the Spanish Civil War was about as surreal as a Dali painting.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Maybe it would be fairer to say , imo , that we don't know how Anarchism would " work " because everytime it shows its face it has been violently suppressed by both capitalists and State socialists.
    The same thing is true for national-socialism. Please note that Stalin, Churcill and Roosevelt fought together to destroy German national-socialism.

    Nevertheless, we do see how national-socialism prospered for 7 years in spite of the violent suppression and propaganda from all sides. We see both happy workers and happy intellectuals when we look at life in the Third Reich before WW2. This cannot be said of any anarchist society.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Having said that he would have had no time for National Socialism he would have seen it for what it is. His criticism of Marxism would be easily applied to National Socialism. They have many similarities
    National-socialism has many similarities with enlightened monarchism, fascism, Maoism, Stalinism, Juche and national-anarchism but also with anarchism. The relation with anarchism rests mostly in its focus on community life and rural life. National-socialists are strongly communitarian, ecologist, anti-urban and in favor of natural hierarchy instead of a class system.

    Natural hierarchy is the hierarchy as a result of the inherent qualities of the individual. In a natural hierarchy, an intelligent person is allowed to position himself above a stupid person within an administrative or academic context and an experienced farmer is allowed to position himself above an apprentice farmer within a farming context. This, irrelevant of class. As such, national-socialism is inherently meritocratic.

  7. #47
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    Not enforcing patents would be a bad idea, because it would discourage people from investing any significant amount of time and money into research and development, if anyone could just copy off of them and sell the same thing for cheaper
    Yes, it would.
    Or wouldn't it?
    With no enforcement of patents, would R&D stop?
    Would innovation stop?
    Do you, as a libertarian, think that corporations will give up the potential profit which comes from bringing a new product to (or is it "on"?) the market?
    Well, I don't think so.
    Greed is something we can rely on.

    On the other hand, even if one thinks there should be patents, one could leave it to the patent-holders to enforce them or pay someone to enforce them.
    It's not my job to protect Microsoft's profits, ya know?


    Greetings from Germany,
    -jmw-

  8. #48
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Death and the Sun View Post
    I'll be blunt: anarchism is for negroes.

    It is in fact the natural state of all sub-Saharan Negroid areas
    Nope.
    There were quite a few states, empires and so on in (sub-saharan) Africa, from todays Burkina Faso down to Zimbabwe.

    And: Quasi-anarchic societies were the rule (or "natural state") for a long time also in other parts of the world were you had traditional and custom-based rules enforced mostly by private means.
    Iceland is a prominent example.
    Ireland too.
    The Germanics, the Celts, Slavs...
    Native Americans.
    And so on and so on.

    Most of the time most of the people of the world did not have a state in the modern sense of the word.

    as well as in all the places they have metastised into: Haiti, Detroit, New Orleans, the suburbs of Paris, etc, etc.
    A lack of enforcement of rules just means that you have a "failed anarchy" (similar to "failed states" known in the Political Science).
    The contrast would be "ordered anarchy" (Anthony de Jasay) which is what most anarchists speak of.


    Greetings from Germany,
    -jmw-

  9. #49
    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    Isn't the reason we can't have anarchy now though because modern military technology gives an extreme advantage to societies with states in the modern sense?
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlluSionSxxx View Post
    The problem with anarchism is that it simply doesn't work.
    We should try and see if you're right!

    It only works on a very small scale (eg. village or corporation), but it fails to work on any regionals, state or federal level. The reason for this, is because larger organisational stuctures require more abstraction and a greater distance between the organisation and the individual. The masses are not capable of grasping the complexity that results from this.
    Well...
    I agree.
    Most people have difficulties to grasp this complexity, that's right.
    It's not easy "to live in two worlds", as Friedrich von Hayek put it: The one of the community, the other of the society.
    Conclusion?
    Elites. Hierarchies. Leadership. - Something alway recognized by anarchists both from the left and from the right (- but of course not by the kiddies who today call themselbes "anarchists" but are just pseudo-anarchist bourgeois leftwingers who happen to like pot and hate cops).

    I understand that anarchists (and national-anarchists) for this reason prefer to avoid any form of authority on levels higher than the local.
    No, not exactly.
    The major problem for (real) anarchists is not authority per se, but instituionalized and monopolized authority.

    This is especially true for anarchists who come from a more rightist point in the political spectrum.

    This, however, inevitably leads to new problems. Without any higher authority, pretty much every village can create its own laws. As a result, something that is illegal in one village would be legal in the next village, with dozens of complications as a result.
    Switzerland seems to have no big problems with that, neither do the U.S.A. in which different counties may have different rules, too.

    And even if there would be problems - would that be so important?
    Or, better: Of course there will be some problems;
    but would they be worse, from an anarchist perspective, than the problems we have now?

    An anarchistic way or life also makes it fairly easy for warlords to arise. Small warlords soon become warmongering imperialists, with dozens of complications as a result.
    Do they?
    How would they do that?
    How would they finance an army in the first place?
    This costs a lot of money.
    Are there a lot of billionaires out there who want to play emperor?
    I doubt that.
    And even if one could form an army, how can we be sure that he would be able to subjugate an armed populace?
    I doubt that, too.

    And even if he does it, than we would have some areas shifting between warlordism, dictatorship and chaos - so, roughly the same we have nowadays.

    Nevertheless, we do see how national-socialism prospered for 7 years in spite of the violent suppression and propaganda from all sides.
    Well, depends on the perspective, I think.
    For a lot of non-NS (democrats, communists, liberals, libertarians, monarchists, feudalists, anarchists... You name it), national-socialist Germany "did not work", was politically deficient.


    Greetings from Germany,
    -jmw-

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