View Poll Results: So?

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  • The Dutch are Low German

    91 60.26%
  • The Low Germans are Dutch

    23 15.23%
  • Neither

    26 17.22%
  • Other

    11 7.28%
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Thread: Are the Dutch Low German or Are the Low Germans Dutch? / Should the Netherlands Join Germany?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried View Post
    What do you think?
    The Dutch are similar to the Low Germans, but they are not Germans. The language is different.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    It works both ways. I could see Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Frisians all in one country, with Franks, Swabians, Thuringians and Lombards in another. The differences don't seem workable through compromise. Niederdeutsche seem to be treated as objects of paternalistic fantasy, like minorities and not legitimate voices deserving self-government.
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  3. #183
    Blut ist ein ganz besonderer Saft. Juthunge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    It works both ways. I could see Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Frisians all in one country, with Franks, Swabians, Thuringians and Lombards in another. The differences don't seem workable through compromise.
    The descendants of Lombards are North Italians(well, likely to some pretty insignificant degree). Are you suggesting a union of West-South Germany and North Italy or what?

    Niederdeutsche seem to be treated as objects of paternalistic fantasy, like minorities and not legitimate voices deserving self-government.
    Of course you have evidence for this?
    "And in the shock of battle the men of the North seemed like a sea that cannot be moved. Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice, and with great blows of their swords they hewed down the Arabs. Drawn up in a band around their chief, the people of the Austrasians carried all before them. Their tireless hands drove their swords down to the breasts of the foe." - The Mozarabic Chronicle of 754, about the Germanic victory at the Battle of Tours.

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  5. #184
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    If I recall correctly, in the 19th century in the USA, the word "Dutch" referred to anyone from the north German plain.

    So it included the actual Dutch and any Plattdeutsch speakers. Hence the US's Pennsylvania Dutch.

    It was basically like this up to WWI, when all things "German" became evil in the US.

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  7. #185
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juthunge View Post
    The descendants of Lombards are North Italians(well, likely to some pretty insignificant degree). Are you suggesting a union of West-South Germany and North Italy or what?

    Of course you have evidence for this?
    The schizophrenic nature of West Germanic tribes, is such that once they got power, Franks and Lombards conspired to defraud Frisians (abolishing their homeland from existence) and Saxons (massacring them into religious obedience) of self-government and to rule in the name of all Germans, to the point where Low German is a peasant and industrial identity and High German is an aristocratic or professional class identity. When it comes to matters of independence from foreign princes and potentates, Franks and Lombards are eager to take assistance from Romance nations, in order to maintain dominance over native Germans. They sold their souls ever since they moved onto Roman territories, rather than love the customs and fashions of their own Germanic brethren. They are the vehicle for European assimilation of Germanic tribes. This is well known. Charlemagne sealed the deal when he took the Iron Crown, but all of this is considered glorious among those of the Rhineland and Alps, no different than the modern multikulti dictum from the powers that be, all of whom have benefited from the biased standardisation of High German. It is no wonder that Low German feudalism would rather be represented among the heads of state of non-HRE establishments, whether the Netherlands in Nassau, England in Hanover, or Denmark in Pomerania, Oldenburg/Schleswig-Holstein and Sweden in Mecklenburg. None of the volks of the North could adequately be represented in a Mediterranean-favouring Alpine establishment that persecuted them worse than dogs. The Hanse were all that kept Low Germans afloat, otherwise, they'd remain enslaved on Bavarian and Austrian estates imposed from elsewhere, on the lands of their own ancestors.
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  8. #186
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    As for the details:

    Dutch are the legit representatives of both Low and High German tribes. Holland is Frankish and Friesland is obviously Frisian. This union of Istvaeones and Ingvaeones escaped the Balticization of Germany and the Uralicization of Austria, although I don't care for the inequality of power and social influence between them. Prussia and Hungary have upended traditional Germanic identity, to the point where Germany has enough in common with Lithuanian and Latvian peoples, Austrians with Finland and Estonia, that they have alienated themselves from other Germanics, although Austria and Sweden seem to have comparable relationships. I'm feeling closer to the Netherlands than before, because it is a decent manifestation of West Germanic folks--I am also part Dutch, from my maternal great-grandparents. When Britain's largest body of people have a Germanic identity in England, whilst Germany's largest body of people have a Balto-Slavic identity in Prussia, the choice of affinity is clear. I feel closer to the Frisians and Franks, than the failed states of Germany and Austria. If only, perhaps, the latter two approximated the former two quite better than the case may be, there would be no reason to feel that way.
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  9. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    I feel closer to the Frisians and Franks

    Dude, you just spat on "schizophrenic franks" in the previous post, blaming them for all bad things and now you say you feel closer to them!?
    By the pricking of my thumbs,
    Something wicked this way comes.
    Open, locks,
    Whoever knocks.

  10. #188
    Senior Member Rodskarl Dubhgall's Avatar
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    I'm not proud of everyone in my family tree. I've got a variety of social classes in my family too. I'm related to good and bad people. I meant to emphasize familiarity and even pointed out the unfair relationship between Holland and Friesland in the Netherlands. I have expressed my dislike for Austro-Bavarians in contradistinction from the native politics of un-Prussified, or pre-Prussian Germany, all the while acknowledging that I have both ancestries. As far as I know, I don't have Prussian or Hungarian ancestors. My wife even has Lombards in her family tree through Switzerland, but I don't find that reason to celebrate spaghetti and pizza. Therefore, I only express my loyalty to that which is thoroughly Germanic and accept the losses of uniformity required assimilation from deviation. Therefore, you will not find a close relationship between Austrians and myself, or Swiss and my wife, because those lines were absorbed in the 18th century, before the American Revolution.
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