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  • The Dutch are Low German

    91 60.26%
  • The Low Germans are Dutch

    23 15.23%
  • Neither

    26 17.22%
  • Other

    11 7.28%
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Thread: Are the Dutch Low German or Are the Low Germans Dutch? / Should the Netherlands Join Germany?

  1. #11
    Nationalſozialiſt Mjölnir's Avatar
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    Post AW: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    @Ragna

    Hahah yes but if i cut off some pieces its sounds like..: Wilhelm meet Hitler in the middle Age.

    M.,
    "Ich will den Frieden - und ich werde alles daransetzen, um den Frieden zu schließen. Noch ist es nicht zu spät. Dabei werde ich bis an die Grenzen des Möglichen gehen, soweit es die Opfer und Würde der deutschen Nation zulassen. Ich weiß mir Besseres als Krieg!
    Adolf Hitler nach Beendigung des Frankreich-Feldzuges in einem Gespräch mit seinem Architekten Prof. Hermann Giesler, Giesler: "Ein anderer Hitler", Seite 395



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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Scholar
    So I'd say in order to determine if the Netherlands is part of Großdeutschland, you'd have to figure out what "Dutch" is. Does anyone know what the average Dutch person looks like, subrace?
    Dutch and Dutch-speaking Belgians (Flemings) are racially Germanic, if they aren't recent immigrants from nonwhite countries.

    Anyway, just because they are Germanic doesn't mean they are Germans. Scandinavians are Germanic, should Scandinavia be a part of Großdeutschland? Hell no.

    There are about 20 million Dutch people. (16 million people in Holland, 6 million Dutch-speaking Belgians in Flanders, a couple of million Dutch-speaking South Africans who could return to the old country; minus a couple of million foreigners in Holland and Flanders.) This Dutch-speaking nation is too big to be assimilated into Germany. I don't think even Hitler would have wanted that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnaroek
    Yes,
    in old Times Netherlands was a Part of the "Heilige römische Reich deutscher Nation".
    So was northern Italy, do you think Italy should be a part of Großdeutschland?

    Südtirol should be, but I mean real Italy.
    Neither assimilation nor integration will solve the problems. The only thing that would work from my point of view would be separation. And this separation should be done on a global level, not on a communal level. The western countries here, the islamic countries there. And a very tall border between the two worlds please.

    -- Valkyrie

  3. #13
    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Susisaari
    Dutch and Dutch-speaking Belgians (Flemings) are racially Germanic, if they aren't recent immigrants from nonwhite countries.

    Anyway, just because they are Germanic doesn't mean they are Germans. Scandinavians are Germanic, should Scandinavia be a part of Großdeutschland? Hell no.

    There are about 20 million Dutch people. (16 million people in Holland, 6 million Dutch-speaking Belgians in Flanders, a couple of million Dutch-speaking South Africans who could return to the old country; minus a couple of million foreigners in Holland and Flanders.) This Dutch-speaking nation is too big to be assimilated into Germany. I don't think even Hitler would have wanted that.


    Well, I guess you dont know much about my country, my people and my fatherlands history, dont you? First of all, no one says that we are Germans, you can not compare us with Scandinavians. The Dutch language can be divided in two sepperated groups: Frankisk and lower-Saxonian. Frankish is the largest. It is been spoken in all of Flanders and in the southwest of the Netherlands. Lower-Saxonian is been spoken in the north and east of the Netherlands. German language can been devided in different groups: Bavarian, Alamanian, Schwaben, FRANKISH and LOWER-SAXONIAN. I myself live in the lower-Saxonian part of the Netherlands. Speaking in terms of dialect, lower-Saxonian is been spoken in northern Germany- before 1945 all up to Memel and Koenigsberg. The state borders between my country and Germany is not an ethnically border, what it is between Germans and Danes in Schleswig. The Dutch and Flemish took an very dominated part in the German east-colonization during the middle ages. Ever heard of Preussisch-Holland in East-Prussia? Or from Flemsdorf, The Flaeming southern of Berlin? The Dutch influence in Danzig? Germans and Dutch-Flemish are family of each other, closely related, same bloodlines, same history and same world of thinking. Scandinavians are the vikings, not the proud Germanics who destroyed Roman empire and reconquer ancient ancestral land back from the Slavs in the middle ages. You Scandinavians where never an part of the reich and never felt the blessings and the unity what it means to be related with your large neighbour. What is an German? Austrians belongs to it, so does Schweitzer Germans, Elsass-lothringen, Luxemburg, nord-Schleswig. Austrians speak the Bavarian dialect. An German from Hamburg is different then an German from Munich. The one from Hamburg does understand more or less the dialect of the norteast of Netherlands, while he has great difficulties to understand Bavarian dialect. And besides, what does Hitler got to do with it? So, he occupided Norway and Denmark, so the same with the lowlands, and what his plans where if he had win the war is inly stuff for speculation. Germany is our mother, and we are the children of Germany, who has left the birthhome but still connected with her. Germans and Dutch-Flemish sharing an great deal of stuff together, more then any other nationality in Europe. We have an special link together, even often denied by natives from both sides, especially from the Dutch side. And for the record, Dutch speaking people do not only live in Flanders and Netherlands. The white Afrikaner people of South-Africa can be considered as Dutch , and in northern France, the region between Somme river and Belgian border- Nord pas the Calais- is ancient Flemish land, in France known as la Flandre, by us as French-Flanders or southern Flanders. Many people there bear flemish surnames, and at the Westhoek district (Dunkerque, Cassel, Bergues, Saint-Omer) there still lives an Dutch speaking minority. (Duinkerke, Kassel, St.Winoksbergen, St.Omaars). Same caunt for wallonia. Komen-Waasten(Comines-Warneton), Moeskroen (Mouscroun), Edingen (Enghien), Waterloo, Jeker vallei (Jeker valley), Wezer (Vise), etc, etc, etc are all aincent Flemish land stolen by the francophones and there still lives Dutch speaking minorities. The Diets population is in fact much large then you think.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Zuid-Vlaming's Avatar
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    Post Re : Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Quote Originally Posted by agnar
    in northern France, the region between Somme river and Belgian border- Nord pas the Calais- is ancient Flemish land, in France known as la Flandre, by us as French-Flanders or southern Flanders. Many people there bear flemish surnames, and at the Westhoek district (Dunkerque, Cassel, Bergues, Saint-Omer) there still lives an Dutch speaking minority. (Duinkerke, Kassel, St.Winoksbergen, St.Omaars). Same caunt for wallonia. Komen-Waasten(Comines-Warneton), Moeskroen (Mouscroun), Edingen (Enghien), Waterloo, Jeker vallei (Jeker valley), Wezer (Vise), etc, etc, etc are all aincent Flemish land stolen by the francophones and there still lives Dutch speaking minorities. The Diets population is in fact much large then you think.
    Actually, Sint-Omaars is not part of what is called Westhoek. Strictly speaking, Westhoek is the part between rivers Aa and Leie (Lys), the northern part of French Flanders (the southern part around Lille/Rijsel being the Flandre Lilloise also called Flandre Romane/Romaanse Vlaanderen). Sint-Omaars isn't even properly to say in French Flanders but in the province of Artois/Artesië, especially the "Vlaamse Artesië" and used to speak flemish until the end of 19th century (St-O is french speaking since). But after all Artois is nothing but an artificially separated piece of Flanders (the French King at the time annexated a piece of Flanders, named it "Artois" and gave it to his brother as his heirloom, that's how Artois was created).

    See the map at http://www.mdsk.net/lnfvp_nl.html , it shows today's flemish-speaking area, as well as the earliest which included not only Westhoek but also Boulonnais (Boonse Heuvels of Bonenaar) and Artesië/Artois : like you said, all the region north of River Somme/Zomme.
    Those provinces were part of former Grand Flanders within its largest borders of the Middle Ages. And, along with Hainaut/Hennegouwen, were the southernmost of the 17 Provincien... De Zuidelijkste Nederlanden. Today the region "Nord-Pas-de-Calais".

    You might also want to check the website of the Streek Verbond Vlaanderen-Artesië-Hennegouwen (streek-verbond.org alas not many parts have been translated in nl), this movement has for purpose the rebirth of the netherlandse language, culture, and identity in those parts, Zuid-Dietsland.

    Because after somewhat 200 years of french occupation and frenchization, most people have forgotten their netherlands heritage : yet it still is rightful to claim the belonging to the Dietsland.
    Rather than saying it was stolen by the francophones, I'd prefer to say thatit was stolen by the French leaders and therefore became french-speaking, because of forced frenchization... french-speaking but not french, for those who place deep-rooted identity and heritage above "nationality".

    End of the parenthesis.
    Last edited by Zuid-Vlaming; Wednesday, August 24th, 2005 at 04:20 PM.
    The Stranger within my gates, he may be evil or good, but I cannot tell what powers control - what reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land shall repossess his blood.

  5. #15
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    Post AW: Re : Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    So was northern Italy, do you think Italy should be a part of Großdeutschland?

    Südtirol should be, but I mean real Italy.
    Hello?
    The Question of the Thread was: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?
    Not Italy or what ever you mean!

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    Post Re: AW: Re : Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnaroek
    Hello?
    The Question of the Thread was: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?
    Not Italy or what ever you mean!
    Somebody said on this thread that the Netherlands should be a part of Großdeutschland because they used to be a part of the Holy Roman Empire, and I pointed out that the same argument would justify half of Italy being a part of Großdeutschland too. This is called reductio ad absurdum.

    Learn some logic.
    Neither assimilation nor integration will solve the problems. The only thing that would work from my point of view would be separation. And this separation should be done on a global level, not on a communal level. The western countries here, the islamic countries there. And a very tall border between the two worlds please.

    -- Valkyrie

  7. #17
    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re : Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Susisaari
    Somebody said on this thread that the Netherlands should be a part of Großdeutschland because they used to be a part of the Holy Roman Empire, and I pointed out that the same argument would justify half of Italy being a part of Großdeutschland too. This is called reductio ad absurdum.

    Learn some logic.

    No, you must learn some logic. The question of the Netherlands should be a part of the future German reich has basically nothing to do of the fact that it belonged it in the past to the holy Roman empire. It is all about ethnic related connection, the fact that Germans and Dutch are from the same bloodlines, the same origins, the same ethnicy, the same race, the same culture and language. Italians, even the Padanians are not related to the Germans and her great and proud history, culture and ethnicy. Dispite the fact that north Italians are from Germanic or partly Germanic origins, they are not related to Germans, something the Dutch-Flemish infact do. That, my friend is logic. Nothing more, nothing less.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Nop. I don't believe in a greater netherland and neither in a greater germany. Flanders should be an independent state. Free to decide its own future and it should be ruled in the interest of its own people and that wouldnt be the case with berlin as capital.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Aragorn's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    Quote Originally Posted by TseBbe
    Nop. I don't believe in a greater netherland and neither in a greater germany. Flanders should be an independent state. Free to decide its own future and it should be ruled in the interest of its own people and that wouldnt be the case with berlin as capital.


    So, you dont believe in it, much many others do. Flanders independent, probably and unfortanatly without Brussels. Do you really think an independent Flanders will survive for long? hey, why dont you give limburg not its independent? An unification with the Netherlands makes us an strong economical and political state against France. With two main harbours; Rotterdam and Antwerp we can lead the main economy in this part of western Europe. Unification with Netherlands can make our claim on Brussels stronger. Flanders alone against Walloons and France is like an mouse against an lion. Brussels should be the capital of the united Netherlands. Powerfull France will only laugh about an silly and weak Flemish state which wont be possible to make anything against the Francophone influence. An unification of Flanders with its bloodbrothers from the north in an federation, so, no controlling and ruling by the Hollanders, is the only answer for us to survive. Our greater Netherland, in which you dont believe, will raise one day and this state will retake all the land stolen from us by France and Wallonia.
    Same goes for Germany. The greather Germany must and will exist with its original and ancestral land, such as Elsass-Lothringen, Ostmark, Bohemia, Silesia, Pommerania, etc. Anyone who denies the German claims on the lost regions, and anyone who denies the Diets claims on certain parts of Wallonia and Northern France, is not an real pan-Germanic, and certainly not an friend of the German-Dutch people and culture. The problem is today, that people people think and truelly believe that our claims are utopic, just because of the present day multicul occupition. Nothing is lost yet, the battle has just begun. Flemish nationalists who prefer an own independent state then an unification with their Dutch brothers, is ofcourse understandable, as they have suffered under Francophone occupation. However, we are not French, we are your brothers, we are from the same bloodline and we speak the same language and we share the same history. Do not be afraid for an domination by the Hollanders. The united Netherlands must be an federation, with equel rights for all of the Diets blood line: Flemish, Brabanders, Hollanders, Frisians, Limburgians, Gelderians, etc. Thats why, Brussels should be the capitol, not Amsterdam or the Hague. we where sepperated for an very long time, but do not let this sepperation for good. Only France will bennefit from it. An United Netherlands, from Dollard to Somme is best pretected within an German empire, under German pretection. The E.U is rubbish and it leads to no where. On the other hand, an Germanic federation, especially the one which will unite the German and Dutch speaking peoples is our best guarrantee to survive and to grow stronger. An renew German reich does not necesarry include Scandinavia;they can have their own Germanic federation- the Nordland, except Nord-Schleswig which is German owned land. If I had to choose between E.U or German reich, the answer is very simple. If I had to choose between an united Netherlands or two sepperated small dutch-speaking nations, my answer is very clear.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are the Netherlands part of Großdeutschland?

    I'll wager there are many German nationalists who do not even want to be part of the present state, but I'll also wager that once the shackles imposed on Germany are gone and the State in proper accord with the ancient Nation of continental Germanic folk, many in the Netherlands and elsewhere would be proud to be part of a resurgent and strong state governed from Berlin. Particularly, I imagine if they could join voluntarily, and laws were enacted in Berlin to preserve and respect ancient dialect and regional differences at the local level, while leaving the messy business of foreign policy, immigration, international trade and so forth up to Berlin.

    When Bavaria and other kingdoms joined the Kaiserreich, they kept their own Kings and other leaders, yet those kings bent knee to the Kaiser and Berlin.

    In the end, for smaller nations in Europe, particularly those closely related to Germany by blood, culture, and language, I would think learning German as a second language, and supporting the decisions made in Berlin would be preferable to anyone who does not want to see their homeland gradually become part of the McWorld created through Americanism.

    How many choices and policies, and how much Dutch tax money already exist to support choices made in Washington DC few citizens in the Netherlands actually favor? ...but it should be left to the Netherlands to decide.:tthumbsup

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