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Thread: The English are German

  1. #21
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    In the back of my mind, I’ve always had doubts that the English were mostly Germanic.

    A MAJOR genetic study of the population of Britain appears to have put an end to the idea of the "Celtic fringe" of Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
    Instead, a research team at Oxford University has found the majority of Britons are Celts descended from Spanish tribes who began arriving about 7,000 years ago.

    Even in England, about 64 per cent of people are descended from these Celts, outnumbering the descendants of Anglo- Saxons by about three to one.

    The proportion of Celts is only slightly higher in Scotland, at 73 per cent. Wales is the most Celtic part of mainland Britain, with 83 per cent.

    Previously it was thought that ancient Britons were Celts who came from central Europe, but the genetic connection to populations in Spain provides a scientific basis for part of the ancient Scots' origin myth.

    The Declaration of Arbroath of 1320, following the War of Independence against England, tells how the Scots arrived in Scotland after they had "dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes".

    Professor Bryan Sykes, a human geneticist at Oxford, said the myth may have been a "residue" in people's memories of the real journey, but added that the majority of people in England were the descendants of the same people who sailed across the Bay of Biscay.

    Prof Sykes divided the population into several groups or clans: Oisin for the Celts; Wodan for Anglo-Saxons and Danish Vikings; Sigurd for Norse Vikings; Eshu for people who share genetic links with people such as the Berbers of North Africa; and Re for a farming people who spread to Europe from the Middle East.

    The study linked the male Y-chromosome to the birthplace of paternal grandfathers to try to establish a historic distribution pattern. Prof Sykes, a member of the Oisin clan, said the Celts had remained predominant in Britain despite waves of further migration.

    "The overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on is 20 per cent at most. That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent," he said.

    "The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 per cent are of Viking ancestry."

    In Scotland, the majority of people are not actually Scots, but Picts. Even in Argyll, the stronghold of the Irish Scots, two-thirds of members of the Oisin clan are Pictish Celts.

    However, according to the study, the Picts, like the Scots, originally came from Spain.

    "If one thinks that the English are genetically different from the Scots, Irish and Welsh, that's entirely wrong," he said.

    "In the 19th century, the idea of Anglo-Saxon superiority was very widespread. At the moment, there is a resurgence of Celtic identity, which had been trampled on. It's very vibrant and obvious at the moment.

    "Basically the cornerstone of Celtic identity is that they are not English. However, to try to base that, as some do, on an idea that is not far beneath the surface that Celtic countries are somehow descended from a race of Celts, which the English are not, is not right. We are all descended from the same people.

    "It should dispel any idea of trying to base what is a cultural identity on a genetic difference, because there really isn't one."
    Source: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1393742006



    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    Funny how the Faelid type is not that common, but Nordids and North-Alpinids are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakkar View Post
    Speaking of which, where is the most significant population of faelids (today)?
    Denmark - 30% (UP+N)
    Germany - 20% (Most common - N)
    Netherlands – 10%
    Sweden – 10% (Most common in Dalarna (Kopparberg) and the southwest coastal region, UP+Nordic mix)
    Norway - 7% (Most common in the south, UP+N)
    England - 2% (Viking and Norman derivation; associated with the landed gentry; source of the "John Bull" type)
    Source: http://www.geocities.com/zakus_1999/Races.html

  2. #22
    Senior Member stormlord's Avatar
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    Just a note to the non english members here; there is within Britain a very strong anti germanic bias that essentially aims at defusing English nationalism and keeping us within the Union with the rest of Britain. For the same reason our saint's day is not allowed to be a public holiday while st Patrick's day is celebrated everywhere, several local government authorities do not allow flags to be flown, and English is not allowed as an ethnic choice on census forms even though Scottish, Irish etc are. All of the anti migrationist theories have only appeared over the last 10-15 years, tend to be based on selective interpretation and tend to be touted by left wing news outlets like the Guardian and the new Labour bible Prospect magazine. Additionally it's interesting to note that the three most prominent researchers in this area include a Scot and two fellows that go by the names of Oppenheimer and Goldstein.

  3. #23
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    there is within Britain a very strong anti germanic bias that essentially aims at defusing English nationalism and keeping us within the Union with the rest of Britain.
    But one shouldn't assume that it has to be either a fully Germanic England or else an England whose identity is not distinct from the other nations in Britain.

    If the English are descended mostly from the Britons (which I believe is the case) I don't see why that should weaken the sense of being a distinct nation. The Welsh, Scots and Irish all consider themselves distinct nations, in spite of recognising their interrelatedness.

    What I mean is that English identity and Celtic British descent are not opposites. The English don't have to be more similar to the continental Germanics than to their island neighbours in order to be a nation in their own right.

    tend to be based on selective interpretation
    In my view the mass migration theories were based on selective interpretation, and taking the writings out of context.

    We ought to distinguish though between the particular theories touted by left-wing media, and the genuine, realistic theories.

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    Senior Member Ausswolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivalin View Post
    Over generalisations in areas as complex as this tend to be unwise, I'm mainly English with a little Boer thrown in and I'm 6'4', so not all Englishmen are "shorter than Germanics". Also average heights are now extremely unreliable with regards to western populations due to the very high levels of immigrations from third world countries. With regards to Holland, while they may be tall now they were mocked for centuries as the shortest people in Europe; factors such as public health and nutrition contribute as much to average national heights as genetics.
    Good point. My english grandfather and cousins are over 6 foot, I don't think height has much to do with classification within northern europe as it is so variable depending on nutrition.
    On Skadi I asked people to classify me and I got typed by everyone as being Faelid... and I come from 100% british blood.
    Overall I think England is very germanic with some areas more than others, just like in other germanic countries like scandinavia (lapps) and germany (slavs/alpinids)

  5. #25
    Senior Member Freydis's Avatar
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    I don't see why there isn't any Germanic influence in England. ^^
    People turn to poison as quick as lager turns to piss

  6. #26
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    Remember your semantics people. If you study the etymology of the Q-Gaelic term "German", it translates to "beyond the Rhine". Clearly, the English are descended from Germanic populations, but this does not make them German.

  7. #27
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiríkr View Post
    In the back of my mind, I’ve always had doubts that the English were mostly Germanic.

    My same suspects, honestly. Genetically speaking at least (no offence for supporters of "Germanic Britain")


    Even in England, about 64 per cent of people are descended from these Celts, outnumbering the descendants of Anglo- Saxons by about three to one.

    The proportion of Celts is only slightly higher in Scotland, at 73 per cent. Wales is the most Celtic part of mainland Britain, with 83 per cent.

    AMERIC, once, stated British isles populations being of the same common origin. I substantially agree. But in the sense they're ALL (scots, irish English) predominantly non-Germanic (genetically), rather PRE-Germanic descendants (Celts or other)

    Cultural factors are a different thing............

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    My same suspects, honestly. Genetically speaking at least (no offence for supporters of "Germanic Britain")

    AMERIC, once, stated British isles populations being of the same common origin. I substantially agree. But in the sense they're ALL (scots, irish English) predominantly non-Germanic (genetically), rather PRE-Germanic descendants (Celts or other)

    Cultural factors are a different thing............

    The article is wrong, I don't know what Sykes is playing at... he says England is 64% R1b (Oisin), this doesn't make them 64% celtic any more than it makes Denmark 50% or Germany 45% celtic. R1b is the dominant haplogroup of western europe.

    http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

  9. #29
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ausswolf View Post
    The article is wrong, I don't know what Sykes is playing at... he says England is 64% R1b (Oisin), this doesn't make them 64% celtic any more than it makes Denmark 50% or Germany 45% celtic. R1b is the dominant haplogroup of western europe.

    http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf


    Ok, but on the other side is logic to think that 300'000/400'000 Anglosaxons (their appoximative demographic consistency) couldn't outnumber a native population of about 2 millions of peoples.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hussar View Post
    The question is very intriguing, guys.

    Personally i think otherwise. I think major part ofpeoples emigrated from British Isles was more of Celtic background (or at least genetically).
    I mean major ethnicities emigrated in North-America are : Catholic-Irish (fully celtic), Scot-Irish (or "protestant Irish". Mainly celtic). Welsh (fully celtic)
    Scottish (partially to heavily celtic) and ENGLISH (generally the lowest classes of english population emigrated. I suppose lowest english classes are if not predominantly, at least notably Britonic/Celtic in heritage)

    So in conclusion, the Celtic genetic contribute from british isles to North-America is very big. Reversely the British isles kept the major part of their Germanic blood...........that's simply my personal hypothesis.

    Imo the biggest source of "pure" Germanic blood in North-america comes from Germans, Dutch and Scandinavians and some french.


    The real and controversial point of the question, anyway, is How the British Isles are Germanic ? Post roman empire Anglo-saxon invasions , EFFECTIVELY changed the genetic structure of british isles populations, or simply imposed their germanic language to a vast native local population ?

    I opened a thread about Scotland months ago.........a similar thread about Englad ("is England really Germanic?")would be even more complicated.
    Hussar I like you, but man you keep going on with this same bollocks thread after thread. Its like your official dogma! How much scientific evidence you need! No, offense but to you appear pretty docile person! First, the biggest and the initial group of settlers to US were predominantly from Eastern England, East-Anglia to be specific. Whether they were arictocrats or lower-class is insignificant! Second) As we've been available to read from severeal studies English are overwhelmingly Germanic, genetically identical to North-Germans and Danes. Thus they are Germanic in their origins, not indegious Celtic or any other just like this article, backed with latest research proves! You may be as much suspicious of Englands Germanicness as you like, but it will only make you appear "cognitively challenged", idiot so to speak!

    To address the sub-racial differencies between North-Germans and English is probably the dummest activities one can come up with! Its clear they are very similar, environmental stimulus ofcourse has its effects in longer run, but its not siginificant!

    BTW

    There's no such thing as Borreby or Nordid genes! The typological system of thirties, overemphasizing cephalic index and facial index are ridiculous at the time of DNA.

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