View Poll Results: Is Christianity alien to Germanics?

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  • Christianity is as alien to Germanics as Judaism and Islam.

    199 35.10%
  • Christianity is alien in origin, but it is less alien than Judaism and Islam.

    164 28.92%
  • Christianity is not alien to Germanics at all.

    168 29.63%
  • Other (please explain).

    36 6.35%
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Thread: Is Christianity Alien to Germanics?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    That may sound good, but it makes no sense.
    Really, explain?

    Have you tried Islam?
    No, not per se. But for several years I was very much fascinated with it, even to the extent I actually considered converting.

    What if you did, and you found that it was not only true, but in fact true to a greater extent than Christianity? Would you convert?
    Yes I would.

    You may say that Christianity is entirely true, but what if you find another religion that is entirely true?
    Then I would convert to it.

    If you found that you feel Christianity is 'truer' than any other religion, I'd say that's because you were brought up in a Christian context of some kind.
    I was brought up in a Christian context. Nevertheless, that doesn't negate the fact that I've spent several years exploring various different spiritual paths. I also spent several years of my life as an atheist.

    And in case you don't know, being a Christian does not mean denying the spiritual value of other faiths. As Thomas Merton famously stated:

    "If I affirm myself as a Catholic merely by denying all that is Muslim, Jewish, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, etc., in the end I will find that there is not much left for me to affirm as a Catholic: and certainly no breath of the Spirit with which to affirm it.”

    And I firmly agree with this. I have no problems whatsoever getting along with peoples of other faiths, so long as they respect mine.

    In fact, if you think that we should go with what's true, you shouldn't ask yourself if Christianity is the true religion.
    Since we're discussing Christianity here, that's exactly what you're supposed to be asking yourself.

    You should examine all religions, and moreover, you should just go with anything that is true.
    See my comments above.

    In my opinion, you are overlooking the ethnic component of beliefs
    No actually I am not. In fact one major argument I'm making here is that Christianity openly acknowledges and celebrates the fact that each ethnicity and culture has its own unique way of following the faith. Christian Universalism is not abstract you know, it's always been based upon a concrete basis.

    You might as well have asked yourself if Voodoo is the true religion, but I take it you didn't.
    Just a reminder, this discussion is specifically about Christianity, not Voodoo.

    And besides, in case you didnt know, but Voodoo is actually a mixture of native African mysticism with Catholicism(ie Christianity); which gets back to my main argument about "inculturation".

    If you wish, here's an interesting article from Crisis Magazine about Voodoo:
    http://www.crisismagazine.com/may2004/wray.htm

    So in many ways, you just rendered a rather odd and moot question.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakravartin View Post
    No, that would just be regressing. Especially away from anything to do with preservation and tradition.
    Which things that are currently explained by science today do you think would be better explained by mythology?
    Contact Congress on immigration
    Contact Congress to reject banker bailout
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." --Ben Franklin

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taras View Post
    As Thomas Merton famously stated:

    "If I affirm myself as a Catholic merely by denying all that is Muslim, Jewish, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, etc., in the end I will find that there is not much left for me to affirm as a Catholic: and certainly no breath of the Spirit with which to affirm it.”
    I know very well that quite some (but definitely not all Christians, thank God) somehow think that Muslims are better than those of their own ethnic brothers who are atheists. Adjusting your own beliefs after those of others, be it in rejecting them or conforming to them, is not honest. That I can agree on.

    I have only one question: What is it, in your opinion, that makes Christianity the true religion, or the best one of true religions, or whatever is the basis of your choice? Since you are so sure of it, and think that it is relevant in a debate, you must have a very clear notion of it. So, just say it.

    I do not take a book or another item, and point to it and say: 'Look here it is, the ultimate truth.' Religions can seem to be true, because they can seem to aid you in understanding and help you be at one with truth and spirit, but religions themselves are demiurgic constructions. To say of a religion that it is true, is to focus on an empty vessel instead of on God the essence which can seem to dwell in the vessel. Then you worship religion instead of God. To be religious in that sense is to me the opposite of being spiritual and faithful.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taras View Post
    Of course the question becomes, how on earth does one come to that conclusion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    So the millions of Catholic and protestant Germans aren't really German? eyes: Martin Luther wasn't German? Hitler was a catholic by the way, that's common knowledge, so I guess he wasn't German either?
    It is a question of loyalty, Hitler wrote in his testament, that to every German man the most important thing in this world must be the honor of the German nation.
    He demanded that Germans should primarily believe in their Volk and their race, so if you place your Christian faith above these things, then you are not German, if you subject your faith to these things, then you are not really a Christian.
    Obviously, most of the time there might be no contradiction, but if the time comes where you have to decide, there shouldn't be a moment of doubt which side you would take.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    Oh please, do you realize how ridiculous that is?

    About 67 percent of the German population, more than 55 million people, belong to a Christian Church. Nearly half of them are Protestants, nearly half of them Roman Catholics, and a minority belongs to other Christian denominations.


    http://www.germany.info/relaunch/cul.../religion.html

    So the millions of Catholic and protestant Germans aren't really German? eyes: Martin Luther wasn't German? Hitler was a catholic by the way, that's common knowledge, so I guess he wasn't German either?





    Hitler the Catholic

    Christianity is Semitic in origin, but don't confuse things.
    I like what Evola says about this:
    Ethical and religious Christianity today is nothing more than a name and a habit, absolutely external to conscience; but nobody, or nearly nobody, has bothered to abolish the name itself and to put its content on trial again, so as to start right back at the beginning, rejecting the "fact" of Christianity, its "tradition" and all the rest.

  6. #106
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    Briefly: You ask pragmatic questions, but Christianity is believed because it is historically true, *not* primarily because it is pragmatic, useful, syllogistically complete or totally beneficial to society, etc. In fact it has often been the opposite of such things, as imperial Rome duly noted. I don't believe religion can be practical or pragmatic, at least primarily.

    Christianity, unlike Islam or Asatru, etc., is belief in a just, merciful and personal God, vastly superior to the impersonal and erratic false god Allah or the Germanic pantheon, which are merely elevated humans; one is too transcendent, the other too immanent. His transcendence is from eternity, his immanence proceeds from his self-personality (his trinitarian complexity is the origin, so to speak, of personal relation). Christians have assurance of God's love by the historical facts, witnessed and recorded by the apostles in the inerrant original autographs of the Bible, that God himself became man to die as the perfect sacrifice, and rise again: the complete resolution to all error, ignorance and imperfection which Man through Adam fell into. Thus we have newness of life and enjoy Heaven eternally. If the Christ's bones are found, i.e. if find out that Christ was not raised from the dead, Christians, as Paul says, are to be pitied most among all men. But thanks be to God, it's true, and... it's pretty good, to boot!


    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    I know very well that quite some (but definitely not all Christians, thank God) somehow think that Muslims are better than those of their own ethnic brothers who are atheists. Adjusting your own beliefs after those of others, be it in rejecting them or conforming to them, is not honest. That I can agree on.

    I have only one question: What is it, in your opinion, that makes Christianity the true religion, or the best one of true religions, or whatever is the basis of your choice? Since you are so sure of it, and think that it is relevant in a debate, you must have a very clear notion of it. So, just say it.

    I do not take a book or another item, and point to it and say: 'Look here it is, the ultimate truth.' Religions can seem to be true, because they can seem to aid you in understanding and help you be at one with truth and spirit, but religions themselves are demiurgic constructions. To say of a religion that it is true, is to focus on an empty vessel instead of on God the essence which can seem to dwell in the vessel. Then you worship religion instead of God. To be religious in that sense is to me the opposite of being spiritual and faithful.

  7. #107
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    I think you, Theudanaz, have misunderstood me gravely. Therefore this post is a lengthy one.

    I didn't think that this thread had to be about our personal leanings, about the objective truth or falsety of Christianity or any of those more speculative questions. But I guess the topic can become more interesting this way, and I accept the invitation. I actually started on it in that last paragraph that you quoted me with (in case you didn't notice you can read it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Theudanaz View Post
    Briefly: You ask pragmatic questions, but Christianity is believed because it is historically true, *not* primarily because it is pragmatic, useful, syllogistically complete or totally beneficial to society, etc. In fact it has often been the opposite of such things, as imperial Rome duly noted. I don't believe religion can be practical or pragmatic, at least primarily.
    I advocate that Christianity is a suitable religion for Germanics, but I don't do that on social pragmatic grounds only. If Christianity was all rubbish, but somehow nevertheless had become tradition, I would not advocate it.

    Anyway, I have come to realize something: How permeated the Germanic cultures are by Christianity. That is not enough proof that Christianity is a good vehicle, and it seems to be outside of what you, Theudanaz as well as Taras, consider to be important.

    Anyway, it may sound like a banal truism. I mean that Christianity is culturally manifest all over the place, from the individual and his thoughts all the way through (popular) culture to politics. This is one way that we can (falsely) arrive at the conclusion that Christianity is true, by mere cultural correspondences. But then, in my opinion we have arrived at a delusion, caused by the power of mass culture, not by the power of God. And I think that these things should be debated alongside any discussion of whether a religion is true or not.

    Partly, my advocacy of Christianity is pragmatic, and it is partly pragmatic because most people aren't capable of further insights as to what is cultural and what is spiritual. It's 'all the same' in a naive fashion to most people. I am not pragmatic in the sense that I would deny God. And most of those who are capable of those further insights do not choose to eradicate the influences from a Christian tradition that they have been taught from a young age. They are wise. They continue on their path in oscillation with tradition, because tradition means more and is a better vehicle than what you can pick and choose from someone else's car park, given - of course - that the traditional vehicle is indeed a good one.

    I have met many bad teachers, but that is not what I'm talking about.

    My answer to the divide between realism and relativism is that there can be some vehicles that are equally good. Not all. And don't ask me which ones are equally good, because it is not fair. I'm not a juggler of religions, I don't collect them as trophies and I do not show off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theudanaz View Post
    Christianity, unlike Islam or Asatru, etc., is belief in a just, merciful and personal God, vastly superior to the impersonal and erratic false god Allah
    I will not comment in detail on Islam, for if I would, ugly things would come out of my mouth. Islam does not speak to me. I have tried to lend my two eyes to see for myself, but I am certain: It is not for me, nor for other Germanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theudanaz View Post
    or the Germanic pantheon, which are merely elevated humans; one is too transcendent, the other too immanent. His transcendence is from eternity, his immanence proceeds from his self-personality (his trinitarian complexity is the origin, so to speak, of personal relation).
    Oh, I see. Interesting that you make such a connection, but nevertheless you have to deny the one for the appraisal of the other. Also I can say to anyone who wants to know how I feel about the Germanic pantheon: I'm for it. But I'm not for any strife between Christianity and Heathenry. I think it's a waste of time and energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theudanaz View Post
    Christians have assurance of God's love by the historical facts, witnessed and recorded by the apostles in the inerrant original autographs of the Bible, that God himself became man to die as the perfect sacrifice, and rise again: the complete resolution to all error, ignorance and imperfection which Man through Adam fell into. Thus we have newness of life and enjoy Heaven eternally. If the Christ's bones are found, i.e. if find out that Christ was not raised from the dead, Christians, as Paul says, are to be pitied most among all men. But thanks be to God, it's true, and... it's pretty good, to boot!
    OK, so now here's someone who will tell me what would make Christianity the true religion, it's a matter of the Christ's bones. I thank you for your honesty, although I find it rather peculiar. Tell me, how exactly would we be able to tell whether any given bones are those of Jesus? eyes:
    God expects but one thing of you,
    and that is that you should come out of yourself in so far as you are a created being made
    and let God be God in you.

    Meister Eckhart


    Do U believe in God? | Svensk förskola | Vem äger media? | CA ban on mom & dad | Birth control causes breast cancer

  8. #108
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    It may be less alien than other religions but it is still alien none the less. The origins came from Semites, regardless of Germanic influence afterwards. Heathenism has pure Germanic values and is the only real path to restoring traditional culture.

  9. #109
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    I think it is but less so than Judaism and Islam.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesDexterWard View Post
    A very complicated question, it is. I will just sketch some outlines to explain what I mean.
    Not really. The structuralism involved in Christian mythology and ritual is universal in tone. Perhaps more so than any other cultural system.

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