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Thread: Early Etruscan influence on Northern Europe?

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    Early Etruscan influence on Northern Europe?

    Did this advanced Mediterranean civilisation hold diplomatic and cultural relations with our ancestors in the North?

    Our runes may have been taken from this source (shame my long involved argument from Skadi on this matter was lost! ):




    Here is a short list of known Etruscan lexica, found at this interesting site:
    http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLhome.html

    ais, plural aisar, god.
    am, to be.
    an, he, she.
    apa, father.
    ati, mother.
    avil, year.
    clan, son.
    eca, this.
    fler, offering, sacrifice.
    hinthial, ghost.
    in, it.
    lauchum, king.
    lautun, family.
    mi, mini, I, me.
    mul-, to offer, dedicate.
    neftsh, grandson.
    puia, wife.
    rasenna or rasna, Etruscan.
    ruva, brother.
    spur- or shpur-, city.
    sren or shran, figure (in a picture).
    shuthi, tomb.
    tin-, day.
    tular, boundaries.
    tur-, to give.
    zich-, to write.
    zilach, a type of magistrate.

    Numerals to ten:

    1. thu
    2. zal.
    3. ci.
    4. sha.
    5. mach.
    6. huth.
    7. semph.
    8. cezp.
    9. nurph.
    10. shar.
    It's long been recognised that the numeral 7 in Etruscan, Semitic and IndoEuropean reflects some kind of ancient contacts, and the word STAR is often brought up in the same context, alongside the Mesopotamian theonym ISHTAR/ASTARTE/ASHTAROTH (and our Easter?), possibly suggesting some constellation cult spreading through Old Europe, maybe with Neolithicisation.

    However, I've never heard anything concerning the first word in the above list. AESIR?!?!?! Any comments, anyone? :

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    Senior Member Fafner's Avatar
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    Well, I read something about that a long time ago.

    I don't know very much about Etruscans, but maybe they and Germanics had a same origin or a "crossing" during their migrations. Perhaps this is something improbable but Etruscans origins aren't well known.

    This reminds me of a documental I saw the day before yesterday. It was about a group of archeologists that were in Tintagel (the suppused castle of King Arthur's in Cornwall) trying to prove the existence of Arthurian settlements in a part never studied of the island.


    They worked mostly in the Cove zone and the north-west extreme

    There they found pieces of jars, anphoras and pottery in general with notable Mediterranean, Oriental and North African characteristics






    These are not the pieces found in Tintagel but the reconstruction of parts gave very similar pottery

    All of these were mostly from Etruscan times, so they made up the theory that maybe Tintagel was a commmercial seaport between Mediterranean or Middle-east civilizations and Germanic/Celtic folks.


    Tintagel Castle in Cornwall, England

    Another thing that is pretty mysterious is the appearance of a simbol wit a labyrinth shape:



    This symbol appears in several Northern European coutries (like England, Sweden or Finland) as well as in Italy (where Etruscans lived), Greece and even India, so maybe it would be truth about a common origin.


    Gotland (Sweden)




    Rupestrian inscription in Rocky Valley, North of Tintagel, in Cornwall (England)


    Sibbo (Finland)


    Carving located on a block of granite discovered in England, known as "the Hollywood stone"


    Symbol present on a pottery fragment from Syria


    Symbol present in the Manas Chakra (Rajastan, India)


    Engraving on a coin of Cnosso (Isle of Creta)




    Decoration on an Etruscan vase found in Tragliatella (Italy)

    So, to answer your question about the runes, maybe yes, they had fluent cultural and/or economic relations. Who knows...
    "Cuando la Patria está en peligro, todo está permitido excepto no defenderla"
    José de San Martín

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    Senior Member Loddfafner's Avatar
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    Trade relations are much more likely than recent common origin: if I remember correctly, Etruscan was a non-Indo-European language.

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    ais, plural aisar, god.
    am, to be.
    an, he, she.apa, father.
    ati, mother.
    avil, year.
    clan, son.
    eca, this.
    fler, offering, sacrifice.
    hinthial, ghost.
    in, it.
    lauchum, king.
    lautun, family.
    mi, mini, I, me.
    mul-, to offer, dedicate.
    neftsh, grandson.
    puia, wife.
    rasenna or rasna, Etruscan.
    ruva, brother.
    spur- or shpur-, city.
    sren or shran, figure (in a picture).
    shuthi, tomb.
    tin-, day.
    tular, boundaries.
    tur-, to give.
    zich-, to write.
    zilach, a type of magistrate.

    Numerals to ten:

    1. thu
    2. zal.
    3. ci.
    4. sha.
    5. mach.
    6. huth.
    7. semph.
    8. cezp.
    9. nurph.
    10. shar.
    Just to contribute:

    I dont know ehat does it mean, but red-colored words are Turkic, and even used today.

    am, to be. -im
    an, in, he, she, it. o, on
    (Attention: no genders)
    apa, father. apa, aba, (mother/sister)
    ati, mother. ata (father)
    avil, year. yıl
    clan, son. oglan
    eca, this. aha, aga
    mi, mini, I, me., men
    tin-, day. gün/day, tün/night, tan/morning


    In Escrutian and Turkic, meanings of the words "father" and "mother" replaced each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loddfafner View Post
    Trade relations are much more likely than recent common origin: if I remember correctly, Etruscan was a non-Indo-European language.
    You are right.

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    Senior Member Matamoros's Avatar
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    From the similarity of their alphabet to the runes, I have always assumed that there was some sort of interaction or relationship between the groups. However it make much more sense that they were trading relationships, as cultural and diplomatic relationships would have been impractical and of little use given the distances that separated the Estruscans from Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    It's long been recognised that the numeral 7 in Etruscan, Semitic and IndoEuropean reflects some kind of ancient contacts, and the word STAR is often brought up in the same context, alongside the Mesopotamian theonym ISHTAR/ASTARTE/ASHTAROTH (and our Easter?), possibly suggesting some constellation cult spreading through Old Europe, maybe with Neolithicisation.

    However, I've never heard anything concerning the first word in the above list. AESIR?!?!?! Any comments, anyone? :
    Well who knows is what I say to things like this ? It reminds me of something I read some time ago..

    This single gestalt is signified by the root letters W R D. In Arabic these letters become "warada" which means to come, arrive, to appear, show up, to be found, be met with, be said, to reach a place or arrive. A "wird" is a watering place. "Wurud" means arrival, advent, receipt or appearance. "Maurid' is a place of arrival or destination, a watering place, spring, well, resource, resort, or place of origin. "Warid" means arriving, found, mentioned, newcomer, or arrival. As a second cluster of meanings, "warid" means to blossom, be in bloom (tree), to be red, or to glow.

    Jumping from Old English to Arabic may be criticized, but notice how both the well and the tree motifs are carried over in these two sets of meanings of WARID. On the one hand, it is a well as a stopping place on a journey across the desert. On the other hand, it is a blooming as a tree blooms. Both meanings imply a completion of temporal unfolding. In this completion the emergent eventity becomes fully manifest. The emergent event takes the temporal gestalt into a new era which is another blossoming, and itself comes to completion, creating another phase of the temporal gestalt. The emergent event is an alien that enters the ward and changes the world by manifesting the wyrd. The emergent event had a deep meaning and its own efficacy that challenges that of the word. The emergent event brings the message of destiny to the community in spite of all its efforts to protect itself. Thus, it is possible to name the Arabic root WARIDA as the heart of the Old English word constellation WYRD / WORD / WARD / WORLD. Because it names the key concept of completion signified by the Norn Urth, it focuses our observation on that completion which indicates a singular obsession with the single source out-of-time that is the source of all causation beyond eternity. That is the primal scene of deep temporality which will have to be explored further as we move from the consideration of time to the modern fascination with the concept of Being.

    http://archonic.net/fbpath_book_webe...t/fb12v03.html
    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    And since I'm thinking about it..

    In reference to the "Neolithicisation" I present the following quotes..

    Comparisons with other deities

    Like Ishtar, the Greek Aphrodite and Northwestern Semitic Astarte were love goddesses who were "as cruel as they were wayward".[11] Donald A. Mackenzie, an early popularizer of mythology, draws a parallel between the love goddess Aphrodite and her "dying god" lover Adonis[12] on one hand, and the love goddess Ishtar and her "dying god" lover Tammuz on the other.[11] Some scholars have suggested that

    the myth of Adonis was derived in post-Homeric times by the Greeks indirectly from Babylonia through the Western Semites, the Semitic title 'Adon', meaning 'lord', having been mistaken for a proper name. This theory, however, cannot be accepted without qualifications."[13]

    Joseph Campbell, a more recent popularizer of mythology, equates Ishtar, Inanna, and Aphrodite, and he draws a parallel between the violent yet loving Hindu goddess Kali, the Egyptian goddess Isis who nurses Horus, and the Babylonian goddess Ishtar who nurses the god Tammuz.[14]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar
    In Oriental Mythology Joseph Campbell writes..

    Berossos, whom we have already had occasion to name, gives all ten kings again, but with a total of 432,000 years--which is an extrememly interesting sum. For in the Icelandic Poetic Edda it is tolk that in Odin's heavenly warrior hall there were 540 doors:

    Five hundred doors and forty there are,
    I ween, in Valhall's walls;
    Eight hundred fighters through each door fare
    When to war with the Wolf they go.

    The 'War with the Wolf" in that mythology was the recurrent cosmic battle of the gods and antigods at the end of each cosmic round ( the Gotterdammerung of Wagner's Ring), and as the reader--ever alert--has no doubt already realized, 540 times 800 is 432,000, which is the number given by Berossos for the sum of years of the antediluvian kings. Furthermore, in the Indian Mahabharata, and numerous other texts of the Puranic period (c.400A.D. and thereafter), the cosmic cycle of four world ages numbers 12,000 "divine years" of 360 " human years" each, which is 4,320,000 human years; and our particular portion of that cycle, the last and worst, the so-called Kali Yuga, is exactly one-tenth of that sum. So that we have found this number, now, in Europe, c. 1100 A.D., in India, c. 400 A.D., and in Mesopotamia, c. 300 B.C., with reference in each case to the measure of a cosmic eon.

    pages..116-117
    In Occidental Mythology Joseph Campbell writes..

    The particular problem faced by Zeus in that period was simply that whereever the Greeks came, in every valley, every isle, and every cove, there was a local manifestation of the goddess-mother of the world whom he, as the great god of the patriarchal order had to master in a patriarchal way.

    page..149

    And finally, the goddess whom Tacitus identified with Isis--honored like her as a goddess of the sea and of ships--may or may not be of late import he supposed. For the evidence given by these Germanic forms, of an ancient continuity from as far back as the earliest neolithic infiltration of Europe, is strong enough to support almost any theory of dating that one might wish to propose. In fact, these various goddesses of the German tribes of the first century A.D. are exactly what one should have expected to find in a zone of numerous strains of neolithic diffusion.....the European neolithic heritage produced largely homologous mythic forms, derived from and representing the old order of the great Age of the Goddess: and it was upon this basic stratum that the later layings of high culture myth were superimposed.

    The question remains then as to what these later layerings may have been; and germane to this question is Tacitus's naming of Hercules, Mercury, and Mars as the Latin counterparts of three important German dieties to whom, in his time, sacrifices were adressed. These have been identified unquestionably as THor, Wodan, and Tiu--after whom, as we have seen, our Thursday, Wednesday, and Teusday have been named. In the brilliant literature of the Icelandic Eddas and Middle High German Nibelungenlied, from which Wagner drew his mighty Ring, they are among the most prominent male divinities. And just as in the period of Tacitus's account, so also in the Eddic period, one long millennium later, the figure of Wodan-Mercury was the god paramount, above all.

    pages..476-477
    So I wonder if with the "layering" of a Patriarchal order manifested in our mythology Ragnarok..? Or something like that. Also if it is not akin to the story of Hansel and Gretel wherein the cannibal ogress wants to eat us..? Hel as her who begets and consumes..? :

    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    However, I've never heard anything concerning the first word in the above list. AESIR?!?!?! Any comments, anyone? :
    Maybe there is something to this..

    Eurasiatic is a hypothetical macro-family proposed by Joseph Greenberg that groups together several language families of Europe, Asia, and North America.

    As laid out by Greenberg (2000:279-81), the branches of Eurasiatic are:

    Etruscan
    Indo-European
    Uralic-Yukaghir
    Altaic
    Korean-Japanese-Ainu
    Nivkh (Gilyak)
    Chukotian
    Eskimo-Aleut

    These groupings, except for the first two, are the native languages in various parts of northeast Asia. Eskimo-Aleut is moreover spoken across the subArctic region from northeast Asia to Greenland, and the Uralic languages are also spoken westward as far as into Scandinavia and Hungary.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasiatic_languages
    Later,
    -Lyfing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Did this advanced Mediterranean civilisation hold diplomatic and cultural relations with our ancestors in the North?

    Our runes may have been taken from this source (shame my long involved argument from Skadi on this matter was lost! ):




    Here is a short list of known Etruscan lexica, found at this interesting site:
    http://www.evolpub.com/LCA/VTLhome.html



    It's long been recognised that the numeral 7 in Etruscan, Semitic and IndoEuropean reflects some kind of ancient contacts, and the word STAR is often brought up in the same context, alongside the Mesopotamian theonym ISHTAR/ASTARTE/ASHTAROTH (and our Easter?), possibly suggesting some constellation cult spreading through Old Europe, maybe with Neolithicisation.

    However, I've never heard anything concerning the first word in the above list. AESIR?!?!?! Any comments, anyone? :

    I wonder about the numerals. Once I read there was a great confusion about them. A few dices were found on which some numbers were written, but the researchers couldn`t tell which of the signs means. Has the issue been revealed now?

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    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    There are two lines of evidence usually cited here. The first is the theory runic inscriptions were inspired by Etruscan writings and the other is a piece of religious imagery depicting the binding of a wolfish figure, which is a close visual parallel to the Germanic belief.

    Etruscan origins might come from Troy based on a reinterpretation of Lemnian, a language different from Etruscan but similar to it.

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