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Thread: The Normans

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    As for an actual title of a French equivalent to this English dictionary, let me look around for a bit. I seem to recall something in some footnote from some book but I'm not quite sure. Just give me a bit of time to look a bit ok?
    I remember a little bit of French from School, and have looked a round on google, so here's a few to be going on with:

    http://www.memodoc.com/catgeneral_toponymie.htm

    http://www.archivesnationales.cultur...ponymie_fr.pdf

    http://www.cdip.com/toponymes-france/

    Toponymie de la France and Noms de Lieux seem to be the keywords.

    Monsieur Negre seems to have a big fat expensive book, and also a cheap public consumption one. Perhaps worth a look:

    NEGRE (E.) Toponymie générale de la France, Etymologie de 35 000 noms de lieux Genève, Droz, 1990-1998, in-8, 1871 pp. 4 Vol. 236 € Tome 1 : Formation préceltique, celtiques et romanes. Tome 2 : Formations non-tomanes, formation dialectales. Tome 3 : Formations dialectales (Suite) et Français. Tome 4 : Errata et addenda aux trois volumes
    2001 M-C 361 2C

    NEGRE (Ernest) Les noms de lieux en France. P., Artrey, 1977, pet; in-8, 184 pp 12 €

    http://www.librairie-occitania.com/viii.html

    *****

    And Dreyrithoka, have you tried this:
    http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk...y=GB&type=name
    Big on the Dumnonian peninsula, and the Hampshire/Surrey/Sussex area (maybe colonised secondarily from the first area?).

  2. #32
    Senior Member Aemma's Avatar
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    Great stuff Oswiu! Thank you!

    Yes 'nom de lieux' is the word. I've also come across the word 'lieu-dit'. But nom de lieux is directly translated as name (nom) of (de) place (as you can guess, place ).

    As for those footnoted references I mentioned, here they are if it helps any. They are taken from François Neveux's book, The Normans: The Conquest That Changed the Face of Europe (2008, translated copy).

    1. Le Malo, 'Les normands de la Seine à la fin du IXe siècle,' (article with map of Scandinavian place-names in the Seine Valley)

    2. J. Renaud, Les Vikings et la Normandie, Rennes: Éditions Ouest-France, 1989 (contains Scandinavian place-names in the Caux and Basse-Seine)

    3. R. Lepelley, Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de communes de Normandie, Caen/Condé-sur-Noireau: Presses universitaires de Caen/Corlet, 1993.

    I'll try to post an excerpt from Neveux's book a bit later re: section on place-names and such. A bit more info to check out.

    Cheers for now!...Aemma

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    The Normans were Just a band of Viking's.
    Norman in old french ment Northernman, thus it is called Normandy being northernmans land. But that is only because the lord of the land was Ralf. After he swore allegiance to the King of france he changed his name to Rollo. Him and his crew were the only scandinavians that moved there and settled. Taking french wifes and abandoning there old culture, it is impossible to call them germanic. The people living there are not germanic. The land was full of frenchys. And thus would make their desendents half french, then more than half, so on and so forth. And once conquering England, it wasn't like they obliterated english culture. The anglo-saxons greatly outnumbered william and the norman frenchys in population and land. With that being stated and the impossible prevention of the movement of people, normandy was just a land full of french people and english people whom it would be impossible today to traise back their english if even having any. Today I say all the normans are just french who wish they werent.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Aemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fryskwiking View Post
    The Normans were Just a band of Viking's.
    Norman in old french ment Northernman, thus it is called Normandy being northernmans land. But that is only because the lord of the land was Ralf. After he swore allegiance to the King of france he changed his name to Rollo. Him and his crew were the only scandinavians that moved there and settled. Taking french wifes and abandoning there old culture, it is impossible to call them germanic. The people living there are not germanic. The land was full of frenchys. And thus would make their desendents half french, then more than half, so on and so forth. And once conquering England, it wasn't like they obliterated english culture. The anglo-saxons greatly outnumbered william and the norman frenchys in population and land. With that being stated and the impossible prevention of the movement of people, normandy was just a land full of french people and english people whom it would be impossible today to traise back their english if even having any. Today I say all the normans are just french who wish they werent.

    Huh? A bit of a pretentious post for an upstart, I think!! Do you even know what the hel you're talking about fryskwiking?

    ...Aemma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    Yes 'nom de lieux' is the word. I've also come across the word 'lieu-dit'. But nom de lieux is directly translated as name (nom) of (de) place (as you can guess, place ).

    As for those footnoted references I mentioned, here they are if it helps any. They are taken from François Neveux's book, The Normans: The Conquest That Changed the Face of Europe (2008, translated copy).

    1. Le Malo, 'Les normands de la Seine à la fin du IXe siècle,' (article with map of Scandinavian place-names in the Seine Valley)
    Not on Amazon.fr
    2. J. Renaud, Les Vikings et la Normandie, Rennes: Éditions Ouest-France, 1989 (contains Scandinavian place-names in the Caux and Basse-Seine)
    Quite a lot;
    http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_ss_b?_...t+la+Normandie
    3. R. Lepelley, Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de communes de Normandie, Caen/Condé-sur-Noireau: Presses universitaires de Caen/Corlet, 1993.

    I'll try to post an excerpt from Neveux's book a bit later re: section on place-names and such. A bit more info to check out.

    Cheers for now!...Aemma
    Here's some from French Amazon;
    http://www.amazon.fr/Noms-lieux-Norm...3329331&sr=1-7 NINE Euros only! Might get one!

    Britanny here (Off Topic for the Thread, and maybe even the Forum, but of interest to all Britons with a brain ):
    http://www.amazon.fr/noms-racontent-...329331&sr=1-10
    16 Euros

    Sadly out of stock:
    http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-to...329944&sr=1-49

    Ditto.
    http://www.amazon.fr/%C3%A9tymologiq...331814&sr=1-98

    This is general, but looks a bit naff from the cover... Only 5.85 Euros, mind! Only 319 pages though.
    http://www.amazon.fr/noms-villes-vil...329812&sr=1-16

    Better: 751 pp. but 28 Euros 50...
    http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-%C...3330628&sr=1-1

    Not so easy to find a good general reference book - are the French less interested in this sort of thing than the English? Or is Amazon not their main book selling site? Is there somewhere else I should look?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu View Post
    Not on Amazon.fr

    Quite a lot;
    http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_ss_b?_...t+la+Normandie




    Here's some from French Amazon;
    http://www.amazon.fr/Noms-lieux-Norm...3329331&sr=1-7 NINE Euros only! Might get one!

    Britanny here (Off Topic for the Thread, and maybe even the Forum, but of interest to all Britons with a brain ):
    http://www.amazon.fr/noms-racontent-...329331&sr=1-10
    16 Euros

    Sadly out of stock:
    http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-to...329944&sr=1-49

    Ditto.
    http://www.amazon.fr/%C3%A9tymologiq...331814&sr=1-98

    This is general, but looks a bit naff from the cover... Only 5.85 Euros, mind! Only 319 pages though.
    http://www.amazon.fr/noms-villes-vil...329812&sr=1-16

    Better: 751 pp. but 28 Euros 50...
    http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-%C...3330628&sr=1-1

    Not so easy to find a good general reference book - are the French less interested in this sort of thing than the English? Or is Amazon not their main book selling site? Is there somewhere else I should look?
    Oh dear me. Hmmm...well I'll try to dig around some more this weekend Oswiu. Thanks fro these references though. I'll check them out.

    Hmm I think I'll ask Atlas if he knows of any as well. He might though I'm not sure.

    Frith...Aemma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemma View Post
    Huh? A bit of a pretentious post for an upstart, I think!! Do you even know what the hel you're talking about fryskwiking?

    ...Aemma
    Well besides the fact that his post was hard to read, what exactly are you disagreeing with him there? Do you think that the population of Normandy was predominantly Norse? I sort of doubt it, although I have to admit I don't know a lot about it.

    Isn't it more likely that there were some Norse decendants on the top of society and the (majority of the) rest of the people there were indigenous non-Norse? They did afterall start speaking French. But, please enlighten... is there an estimate at how many Vikings settled there versus indigenous population?

    I'm not meaning to stir anything up, I'm just curious.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos View Post
    is there an estimate at how many Vikings settled there versus indigenous population?
    According to the study I attached to this post Normandie is about 16.7% haplogroup I1a; much of that would stem from the Normans. Also, according to the French DNA Project, French overall is about 6.95% R1a1, which almost undoubtedly came from the Normans. This DNA project doesn't list regions, but I'm willing to bet that R1a1 clusters in Normandie and Bretagne. Moreover, since large portions of Scandinavia are R1b, it is very likely that the Normans contributed to the frequency of that haplogroup in Northern France.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychonaut View Post
    According to the study I attached to this post Normandie is about 16.7% haplogroup I1a; much of that would stem from the Normans. Also, according to the French DNA Project, French overall is about 6.95% R1a1, which almost undoubtedly came from the Normans. This DNA project doesn't list regions, but I'm willing to bet that R1a1 clusters in Normandie and Bretagne. Moreover, since large portions of Scandinavia are R1b, it is very likely that the Normans contributed to the frequency of that haplogroup in Northern France.
    How much of that (I1 especially) do you think would have come from the Franks though, if any (I am not sure where they would cluster, although, I suppose they could have had members of those groups)? I am sure they must have had some influence with these haplogroups as well.

    I'd be kind of sceptical to assume that since France has high levels of R1b that it means it came from a Norse source, the majority of R1b is found in far western Europe and especially amongst groups like Basque, Portuguese, Irish, etc., but I guess it could potentially could have found its way there via the Viking settlers (though I find it rather hopeful). R1a1 I will agree with you likely comes from a Scandinavian source (or so it would seem) which is pretty interesting. Well, Scandinavian or Slavic and I am going to guess it more likely comes from the former than the latter. Interesting, interesting indeed.

    Thanks for that link by the way, it was pretty interesting, very succint as well. Forgive me if I am misinterpreting all of this information, I have almost zero biological background, and have really only learnt about what a haplogroup really even is lately... :p.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos View Post
    How much of that (I1 especially) do you think would have come from the Franks though, if any (I am not sure where they would cluster, although, I suppose they could have had members of those groups)? I am sure they must have had some influence with these haplogroups as well.
    Frankish DNA is very hard to talk about, since no corpses have been tested. They probably did show relatively high levels of I1a, but, like their cousins the Saxons, probably showed high levels of R1b too. The Saxon modal haplotype R1b1b2a1a has been identified at low levels in France. It is likely that there is are several Frankish modal haplotypes that have yet to be identified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos
    I'd be kind of sceptical to assume that since France has high levels of R1b that it means it came from a Norse source, the majority of R1b
    I never said that was the case, merely that the Normans most likely contributed some amount to the R1b found in Northern France, since the Vikings would've been a mix of R1a, R1b, I1a and minorities of J2 and E3b.

    Quote Originally Posted by Svartljos
    Thanks for that link by the way, it was pretty interesting, very succint as well. Forgive me if I am misinterpreting all of this information, I have almost zero biological background, and have really only learnt about what a haplogroup really even is lately... :p.
    Not a problem mate. Studying French DNA is one of my hobbies, and I'm always happy to share.
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