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Thread: WWII: Was Stalin to Blame? Did Stalin Plan to Invade Germany?

  1. #21
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    Re: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    People would belive the fantasy and lies of Jewish Rezun (hiding behind Russian noble lastname Suvorov) - only to justify the Hitler's aggression?
    Is 'Resun' a Jewish name? As 'Shirin'-ovsky? Are these Russian words? (Which language are these names from? What do they mean?)

    It is possible that Resun is a Jew - nothing is impossible -, but in this case it would be difficult to understand his motif for what he is doing.

    I agree with you as for the first "famous" book if his: Ледколь, which appeared early in 1989, i.e. before the Iron Curtain was lifted. The aim of this book might have been to discredit the 'Bolshevist' Soviet government. But on the other hand, Mr. Gorbachev was already at work and this book could do nothing else than damage him. For it could only stir up "patriotic" emotions among all Russians. So in the end, it would strengthen the Communists. Take yourself as example: I suppose you are no communist. But immediately when it comes to the war of 1941 you will as kind of reflex support "Russia" and, as the Bolshevists at that time represented her, you will side with them.

    There is one thing you don't know, namely, how Resuns books were received in Germany. The first book of course was a "big succes", selling more than one hundred thousand copies, and published by a respectable German publiching house (Klett & Cotta). But as Resun anounced, this was only "Part One" of - as finally turned out - a trilogy.

    The secong volume of thie trilogy, День М, was issued in 1994, still by Klett & Cotta, but the paper which was used was of lower quality and only some 5000 copies were sold.

    When Resun finished in 1997 the third volume, Последная Республика, a strange thing happened: he lost his German publisher. Klett & Cotta did not want to cooperate with him anymore. Why? It would be a good business among the Germans, at least the "right wingers". Resun found another publisher who took over: the "national" Pour le Merite-publishing house.

    And the story goes on: he has written another, forth book, which must be regarded as a "continuation" of the trilogy: Жуков. This book too was published by the rather petty Pour le Merit. Why? And in this book, Resun says many harsh words against the so called Russian oligarchs, which mostly are Jews. Moreover, Resun has shifted over these four books, i.e. over a period of more than a decade, from an anti-Stalin, "democratic" to Stalin-friendly, almost - in fact - a pro-Stalin, "authoritarian" stance.

    Always in his books he is arguing entirely from the point of view of a military expert, a war historian who himself has been a troop-officer, which you can't say of all his "academic" opponents.

    So if he is a (half or full) Jew, what is his purpose? What can he get?

  2. #22
    Account Inactive Nicola_Canadian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    The land yes, but the cities we built! Land taking is the most normal thing in history, so I don't whine about it, but the claim that Königsberg, a german built city, is a russian achievment is goofy. Same goes for Danzig.
    Well, all these cities were kinda villages around some sort of castle... As for Konigsberg, refer to any Lithuanian historian who will claim that the original name of the city was Karaliaucius (i.e. city of a King)... So if we keep claiming certain area from each other, we will never get anywhere with this now...

    Is 'Resun' a Jewish name? As 'Shirin'-ovsky? Are these Russian words? (Which language are these names from? What do they mean?)
    Zhirinovski is considered a "Russian nationalist" only by the western media... A real Russian would laugh at such a claim... As for his ancestors - Zhirinovski's mother is Russian (that's why he still looks quite descent), but his father was Jewish from Poland. Quite recently Zhirinovski went to Israel to find his father's grave... Zhirinovski was used by "jewish media" in 1990s to make some real Russians follow a fake leader...

    So if he is a (half or full) Jew, what is his purpose? What can he get?
    Well, he got his name and tons of money... Besides I am not sure that it was his own idea...

    Take yourself as example: I suppose you are no communist. But immediately when it comes to the war of 1941 you will as kind of reflex support "Russia" and, as the Bolshevists at that time represented her, you will side with them.
    In 1941? I don't know... Many Russian soldiers actually surrendered without a single shot in the very beginning of the war... Many thought they could join a Russian Liberation Army and free their land from Bolshevism together with Germans... But it was Hitler who made another crucial mistake - he did not allow Russians organise their own army till 1944 when the result of the war was obvious...

    Many of Russian emigrants who were survivors of White army considered Hitler's invasion as possibility to return back to Russia and finish the civil war! Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (the one that supported White Army) has even sent a letter to Hitler supporting his idea of attacking USSR... Again, many things could have been different if Hitler had a little respect to Russians and considered himself a liberator and not the conquerer... When Russians saw the cruel behavior of the aggressor, many joined Red Army as volunteers... Stalin on the other hand was smart - he opened Churches, removed all jews from the commanding groups, freed many political prisoners, returned back some attributes of Russian Empire... He was a genius who succeeded to convince most Russians that the truth was on his side... Hitler didn't succeed in that, because it was not his goal...

    But it is a big topic and probably broader than the subject of this thread... Anyway, to me it is obvious that WW2 was way more complicated war to understand than a simple view of 'European crusade against Red Asians"... It is a stupid view that will never get you anywhere... It didn't get Hitler anywhere for sure...

  3. #23
    Account Inactive Nicola_Canadian's Avatar
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    Re: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    Resun is from West Ukraine that is full of Jews...


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    Re: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    Well, all these cities were kinda villages around some sort of castle... As for Konigsberg, refer to any Lithuanian historian who will claim that the original name of the city was Karaliaucius (i.e. city of a King)... So if we keep claiming certain area from each other, we will never get anywhere with this now...
    The story I know is, the Bohemian King Ottokar, who was a great champ with the knights of the Teutonic Order, founded Königsberg as a German Stadt (=city) Of course, most towns/cities are founded on the basis of some rubbish called "village".

    But don't you think Russia could easily give back this small Kaliningrad area to Germany? What can they use it for? Do they really need so urgently a baltic seaport??? For what? But they could build up trust in Germany if they gave it back. It wouldn't be a great loss for the vast Russia, but a big gain for the small, overcrouded Germany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    Well, he got his name and tons of money... Besides I am not sure that it was his own idea...
    No. As I told you: he may have got "tons" of money only for his first book, not for his others. And this money he has spent, I suppose. And his "name" does not help him much, for he seems to have difficulties to find a "decent", well-respected publishing house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    In 1941? I don't know... Many Russian soldiers actually surrendered without a single shot in the very beginning of the war...
    Sergey Bondartchuk has made a film about that: "The Living and the Dead". In that film the reason for the mass-surrenders was shown as due to lacking communist discipline, or simply cowardice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    Many thought they could join a Russian Liberation Army and free their land from Bolshevism together with Germans... But it was Hitler who made another crucial mistake - he did not allow Russians organise their own army till 1944 when the result of the war was obvious...
    Yes. And at that belated time, general Wlassow still believed it was the right thing to side with the "evil" Germans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    When Russians saw the cruel behavior of the aggressor, many joined Red Army as volunteers...
    How could they see that? They could only see it within the German occupied territory. After seeing it there, how could they join the Red Army?

    The 14. Waffengrenadier-Division der SS "Galizien" was recruted in 1943. For this Division 15.000 men were needed, and some 70.000 volunteered. So there was a surplus which was used to form some 20 Polizei-Regimenter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    Stalin on the other hand was smart - he opened Churches, removed all jews from the commanding groups, freed many political prisoners, returned back some attributes of Russian Empire... He was a genius who succeeded to convince most Russians that the truth was on his side...
    In March 1945, the former Soviet General Wlassow - the true defender of Moscow - said to Goebbles, that Stalin tries to make use of the Jews, whereas the Jews try to make use of him.

    Stalin did not remove "the" Jews from all commanding posts. The Commander-in-Chief of the Second Baltic Front (I forgot the name) was Jew.

    Litvinov was "removed" officially from the position of Foreign Minister, but he never went to a Gulag. He was kept in reserve by Stalin, to be used at any time as middle-man to the Jews in the USA.

    But I agree with you: things are much more complicated than they are perceived usually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    Hitler didn't succeed in that, because it was not his goal...
    Hitler did not succeed, because he believed that the "Germanic" Anglo-Saxons finally would end the fight against him, they would "come to their senses". As late as April 1945 he held this. But they didn't. Churchill eventually "came to his senses" in February 1947, when he gave his Fulton Speech. This was two years too late for Hitler and for the German people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola_Canadian
    But it is a big topic and probably broader than the subject of this thread... Anyway, to me it is obvious that WW2 was way more complicated war to understand than a simple view of 'European crusade against Red Asians"... It is a stupid view that will never get you anywhere... It didn't get Hitler anywhere for sure...
    Wherelse you want to discuss it? I think the place here is not so bad. Also, I have a lot of questions since a long time...
    Last edited by Spjabork; Sunday, July 16th, 2006 at 02:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    If the "documents are not publically known," how do we know that they actually exist? With your comment, you are unwittingly supporting me. Thanks. I appreciate it. Besides, even if Stalin had planned to attack Nazi Germany first, it would have been understandable considering the Nazis' open disdain for Soviet Russia and Slavic "subhumans." Also, Hitler already laid out plans to conquer living space in the East in MEIN KAMPF in the 1920s, way before Stalin could have even thought about starting an "offensive" war against Nazi Germany. If I had been Stalin, I would have also planned a (real) pre-emptive strike against Nazi Germany before the latter attacked first and preposterously claimed afterwards that it was a "pre-emptive" strike from their side (even though it would have been an offensive strike in any case, considering that the entire geopolitical framework of Nazi Germany was based on Eastern expansion and hence invasion). I am only "stuck in the past" in the sense that I want to clear misconceptions about Hitlerism (as opposed to National Socialism) since this ideology still seems to blind a great number of otherwise "good Europeans." There is no use in arguing that Hitler wanted to "defend" Europe from Bolshevism when in reality he wanted to conquer, colonize and annihilate fellow Europeans.

    Constantin
    How could it be known if many documents are not publicly known? Because enough documents are available, and witnesses were available. Be a bit lenient with those who do not write in strict academese. Perhaps "not publically known" should have been "not commonly known". Similar enough concepts to allow that liberty.

    I love this one: 'if Stalin had planned to attack Nazi Germany first, it would have been understandable considering the Nazis' open disdain for Soviet Russia and Slavic "subhumans." ' Tit for tat. Everybody can bomb 'carp' out of the German waters, but the Germans dare not prick a finger (nor vice versa). Isn't this, too, then, an equitable, hence 'fair' claim: "if Hitler had planned to attack Bolshevik Russia first, it would have been understandable considering the Communists' open disdain for Germany, for class unity, for bourgeoise sentimentality (such as families, sexual morality, and religion), and for the over-rich and authoritarian 'subhumans'" ? ? ?

    Again:"If I had been Stalin, I would have also planned a (real) pre-emptive strike against Nazi Germany before the latter attacked first and preposterously claimed afterwards that it was a "pre-emptive" strike from their side (even though it would have been an offensive strike in any case, considering that the entire geopolitical framework of Nazi Germany was based on Eastern expansion and hence invasion)."

    Then it is not war, not even world war that you oppose, but Germany. Pre-emptive strikes against possible German intentions which may or may not have been carried out are acceptable; while pre-emptive strikes by Germany, or against communism, are the sins you deplore.

    You have smashed Germany and German honor between two stones: "even thought it would have been an offensive strike in any case". The stones are sheer bigotry and blind loyalty (to Stalin).

    By the way, "the entire geopolitical framework of Nazi Germany" was not based on Eastern expansion "and hence invasion". Germany also really did believe her African colonies were wrongly and with evil intent appropriated, and hoped (realistically or not) to have them returned. Nor was "invasion" the necessary product of expansion. Annexation provided expansion. Reincorporation of parts of Germany blown off by the Treaty of Versailles --more painfully than the train of Versailles was 'blown off' -- provided expansion. Perhaps war was also considered for expansion. But if that is wrong somehow, perhaps your sights should be directed to an astronomically more murderously expansionist force, namely Soviet Russian Bolshevism.

    I do not believe I quite understand this that you have written: "There is no use in arguing that Hitler wanted to "defend" Europe from Bolshevism when in reality he wanted to conquer, colonize and annihilate fellow Europeans." I can not believe that one who has studied inter-war Germany, Hitler's speeches, pacts, treaties, pre-1933 activities, and National Socialism generally can honestly deny that Hitler saw the defeat of Bolshevism as the only then-current salvation for Europe.

    Of course most everyone hedges the truth from time to time. But I personally have become convinced through research and study that Hitler was sincere in his address "National Socialism and World Relations" on January 30, 1937, from which I the following albeit imperfectly translated excerpts:

    <I mean here that if Europe does not awaken to the danger of the Bolshevik infection, then I fear that international commerce will not increase but decrease, despite all the good intentions of individual statesmen. For this commerce is based not only on the undisturbed and guaranteed stability of production in one individual nation hut also on the production of all the nations together. One of the first things which is clear in this matter is that every Bolshevik disturbance must necessarily lead to a more or less permanent destruction of orderly production. . . .

    I should not be acquitted before the bar of our history, if I neglected something no matter on what grounds – which is necessary to maintain the existence of this people. I am pleased, and we are all pleased, at every increase that takes place in our foreign trade. But in view of the obscure political situation I shall not neglect anything that is necessary to guarantee the existence of the German people, although other nations may become the victims of the Bolshevik infection. And I must also repudiate the suggestion that this view is the outcome of mere fancy. For the following is certainly true: The British Foreign Secretary opens out theoretical prospects of existence to us, whereas in reality what is happening is totally different. The revolutionizing of Spain, for instance, has driven out 15.000 Germans from that country and has seriously injured our trade. Should this revolutionizing of Spain spread to other European countries then these damages would not be lessened but increased.

    . . .
    Mr. Eden declares that under no circumstances does the British Government wish to see Europe torn into two halves. Unfortunately this desire for unity has not hitherto been declared or listened to. And now the desire is an illusion. For the fact is that the division into two halves, not only of Europe but also of the whole world, is an accomplished fact.

    . . .
    The second division has been brought about by the proclamation of the Bolshevik doctrine, an integral feature of which is that they do not confine it to one nation but try to impose it on all the nations.

    Here it is not a question of a special form of national life in Russia but of the Bolshevik demand for a world revolution. if Mr. Eden does not look at Bolshevism as we look at it, that may have something to do with the position of Great Britain and also with some happenings that are unknown to us. But I believe that nobody will question the sincerity of our opinions on this matter, for they are not based merely on abstract theory.

    . . .
    The teaching of Bolshevism is that there must be a world revolution, which would mean world-destruction. If such a doctrine were accepted and given equal rights with other teachings in Europe, this would mean that Europe would be delivered over to it. If other nations want to be on good terms with this peril, that does not affect Germany's position. As far as Germany itself is concerned, let there be no doubts on the following points:

    (1) We look on Bolshevism as a world peril for which there must be no toleration.
    (2) We use every means in our power to keep this peril away from our people.
    (3) And we are trying to make the German people immune to this peril as far as
    possible.
    It is in accordance with this attitude ofours that we should avoid close contact with the carriers of these poisonous bacilli. And that is also the reason why we do not want to have any closer relations with them beyond the necessary political and commercial relations; for if we went beyond these we might thereby run the risk of closing the eyes of our people to the danger itself.

    I consider Bolshevism the most malignant poison that can be given to a people. And therefore I do not want my own people to come into contact with this teaching. As a citizen of this nation I myself shall not do what I should have to condemn my fellow-citizens for doing. l demand from every German workman that he shall not have any relations with these international mischief makers and he shall never see me clinking glasses or rubbing shoulders with them. Moreover, any further treaty connections with the present Bolshevik Russia would be completely worthless for us. It is out of the question to think that National Socialist Germany should ever be bound to protect Bolshevism or that we, on our side, should ever agree to accept the assistance of a Bolshevik state. For I fear that the moment any nation should agree to accept such assistance, it would thereby seal its own doom.
    . . .>

    Adolf Hitler, Führer and Chancellor,
    “On National Socialism and World Relations,” January 30, 1937.

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct
    Alright, get a hold of this fact: Stalin departed from the notion of "world revolution" with his doctrine of "socialism in one country."

    Constantin
    . . . and you believed him ! ?

    Theory and Praxis, communists argue, must go hand in hand. But "The Revolution" is the goal, hence the "Theory" can be adjusted to suit 'circumstances'. The net result is: What they say and what the do are two different things!

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    Senior Member Deling's Avatar
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    Sv: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    The problem is that views of real-politics are MORAL POLITICS (also von Hoffmeister's, even if he doesn't acknowledges it). Politics isn't moralism, nor passages from Mein Kampf, but REALITIES.

    Germany attacked Russia because it could, not because of lebensraum, even though Germany (fortunately so) won't attack Russia again.
    And there's no proof whatsoever that Suvorov's "Stalin-Attack-First" scheme even existed. Nothing yet, just like the "holocaust" archives. But that doesn't matter; German command attacked Russia out of REALITY, not ideology, thus the results followed. Politics isn't morality, and I won't condemn the German attack (nor the counter-attack).

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    Re: Sv: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deling
    The problem is that views of real-politics are MORAL POLITICS (also von Hoffmeister's, even if he doesn't acknowledges it). Politics isn't moralism, nor passages from Mein Kampf, but REALITIES.
    Or as Maritain would explain it; hyper-moralism and Machiavellianism are both political extremes that hinder any decent political system.

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    Re: Sv: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    "Hitler wants to trick us, but I think we've got the best of him."
    --Joseph Stalin to Nikita Khruschev; August 24, 1939

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Vedr: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by ogenoct View Post
    Because Germany lost the war. Besides, Koenigsberg was never part of the GDR. Long live Kaliningrad!

    Constantin

    ---


    Skadi Forum Rules:

    1. This is a board for people of Germanic heritage. Views, ideas, and contributions that are hostile to Germanics or their heritage are not permitted.
    Long live Kaliningrad? Not likely, with these HIV infection rates http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/4382145.stm

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    Re: Did Stalin plan to invade Germany?

    It's looking more and more likely that Stalin was planning to invade the West, probably in July 1941.
    Suvorov's work hasn't been discredited, although attempts have been made. More information is slowly coming from Soviet archives to support the claims in "Icebreaker".
    Incidentally, have people seen how much that book is now worth?

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