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Thread: Metal as a Germanic Answer to Modernity?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    most bands who are genuinely Satanic are more influenced by Gnosticism and ancient occult studies than they are Anton LaVey. I see very little new age nonsense.
    "Occultism" is entirely modern and didn't exist prior to Eliphas Levi who coined the term "occultism." Gnosticism has very little to do with actual gnosis. But to properly discuss this would require alot of time for something which has really seemde to have more or less died out. Metal used to be big in the 70's, 80's and 90's, but is truly sad now.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivalin View Post
    Drink and drugs are modern? Ah yes, they're so modern that northern Europeans have had time to evolve liver enzymes specifically for processing large amounts of beer in short periods.
    The type of person who would allow oneself to be demolished by substances is the lowliest of persons who are characteristic of this age. Do I think that being a slobering drunk is Germanic? Hell no.

    Quote Originally Posted by sophia View Post
    I am fairly sure that sonofburi only accepts things that would gain the full approval of René Guénon as not "new age nonsense". I am also fairly sure that René Guénon probably wouldn't have approved of most of what comes under the terms Paganism/Heathenism, let alone Satanism.
    I don't approve of witchcraft any more than I do any other form of phenomenalism. I know well enough how far things like this can get out of hand.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

  2. #22
    Senior Member sophia's Avatar
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    Witchcraft holds the view that physical objects do not exist as things in themselves but only as perceptual phenomena or sensory stimuli situated in time and in space?
    A* I’m a dreadful reactionary, Mrs. Helena. I don’t like this progress one bit.
    H* Like Nana.
    A* Yes, like Nana. Does Nana have a prayer book?
    H* A big fat one.
    A* And are there prayers in it for various occurrences in life? Against storms? Against illness?
    H* Against temptation, against floods -
    A* But not against progress, I suppose?
    H* > I think not.
    A* That’s a shame.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sophia View Post
    Witchcraft holds the view that physical objects do not exist as things in themselves but only as perceptual phenomena or sensory stimuli situated in time and in space?

    No, I'm saying that witchcraft, occultism, etc., is only concerned with phenomena.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    Senior Member stormlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofburi View Post
    The type of person who would allow oneself to be demolished by substances is the lowliest of persons who are characteristic of this age. Do I think that being a slobering drunk is Germanic? Hell no.
    Well to be honest, it doesn't matter what you think, nor what I think, heavy drinking is and always has been a part of germanic culture, you can't decide what is and isn't germanic based on what you do and do not like.

    It seems that some people like to have their own narrow view of what is and isn't germanic, and if a certain aspect of germanic culture isn't the typical ubermensch type stuff they prefer, then they just ignore it.

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    Vintersverd is right on this one, I know personally. As Ulver said:
    "The average Black Metal record buyer is a stereotypical loser." Pretty right on, no wonder they don't make Black Metal any more..

    But anyway, while I love the music (as I do plenty of other genres), I realize most of the fans are pure idiots, as you'll find in any genre of music TBH (some more than others).

    And there are a few good non-white metal bands, though the only ones I can think of are Japanese and Russian (tee hee).

    As for it being non-white, no, not really. Rock may have to a small degree been inspired by Blues, which was a genre made with all European instruments and by negroes living in a European country with little/no knowledge of their own African culture.

    We are born to fight and to die and to continue the Flow
    The Flow of our People


    Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Cythraul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofburi View Post
    "Occultism" is entirely modern and didn't exist prior to Eliphas Levi who coined the term "occultism." Gnosticism has very little to do with actual gnosis. But to properly discuss this would require alot of time for something which has really seemde to have more or less died out. Metal used to be big in the 70's, 80's and 90's, but is truly sad now.
    - 'Occultism' didn't exist until the term was first uttered, but the practices done under the term 'occultism' are as ancient as man. Occultism describes everything from ancient Shamanism to new-age 'nonsense'. Therefore it is ridiculous to demote all 'occultism' to the realms of nonsense. Given, there are practices that can fall under the banner of the occult that are meaningless and trivial, but a large proportion of the occult is nothing but a renewal and continuation of the things our 50,000 year old ancestors did.

    - Gnosticism has little do with actual gnosis (by this I assume you mean absolute truth, sacred knowledge) - yes. I fail to see your point. When I mentioned Gnosticism I was merely trying to demonstrate that metal has drawn on essentially non-European ideas for a long time. That Gnosticism isn't gnosis doesn't disprove this, and is actually quite irrelevant to anything that has been discussed. Nevertheless I'll be pre-emptive and assume that you mentioned this in order to suggest that any Gnostic practice within metal is as much a 'phenomena' as the occult is. Well sure... the rediscovery of anything old can always be described as a phenomena. Should it not be rediscovered just for fear of being belittled as a phenomena? Is it a phenomena to rediscover one's cultural heritage?
    "If by being a racialist, you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man that believes one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically no." - Enoch Powell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cythraul View Post
    - 'Occultism' didn't exist until the term was first uttered, but the practices done under the term 'occultism' are as ancient as man. Occultism describes everything from ancient Shamanism to new-age 'nonsense'.
    No, you're wrong. Occultism refers to a counterfeit or counter-tradition which reads things into ancient traditions that were never there. One clear example is reincarnation, and another is making magic into something other than a rather inferior science. Most occultists since Eliphas Levi including him were nothing more than Protestants or people who wanted to destroy Abrahamic traditions (and really all forms of sacerdotal authority). Some possessed low level degrees but never one effectively possessing Gnosis. Occultism is rather a form of political spirituality and an obsession over paranormal phenomena, especially those produced by evocation.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

  8. #28
    Senior Member Cythraul's Avatar
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    I'm afraid we still disagree sonofburi. Occultism is quite simply a modern name for forms of esoterica and paranormal phenomena that have existed for perhaps 50,000 years or more.

    A while back, I read up on Shamanism (both the history and some modern how-to books) and was hugely drawn to it. Then a year or 2 later, my girlfriend introduced me to some modern 'occult' books. I had a read of them, with an open mind as always, but with each book, I'd get about half way through and then just stop and think to myself - everything I'm reading here is just ancient Shamanic belief dressed up in modern frocks. So I cut out the middle man, gave up the occult books, and read up on ancient practices instead.

    The occult encompasses a lot of trivial nonsense - agreed. But most of the occult practices of today are merely a slight superficial modification of ancient spirituality. If you are working with the spirit world, are using ritual, and are using plants and herbs for their effective properties in some way, then you could be a spiritual person from 5,000 BC, or an occult practitioner in 2008 AD. They may not have called what they did "occult" in 5,000 BC - and perhaps this is where your contention comes from, labels - but our modern word 'occultism' effectively describes that ancient practice. It is an umbrella term, and my guess is that it is its ability to describe some of the new-age nonsense under the same banner as what you might deem genuine ancient spirituality that has you repelled.
    "If by being a racialist, you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man that believes one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically no." - Enoch Powell

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    It's called occult or new age because the beliefs and practices have almost nothing in common with ancient beliefs and practices. I've studied this far too much to change my opinion.
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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    One clear example of the bad influences in heavy metal is the song “After all (the dead)” by Black Sabbath which was written about the spiritist communication with the dead and all the ridiculous theories that are tied up with it, including reincarnation. Just so no one gets the wrong idea, Dio said in an interview on one of his DVDs that he had attended hundreds of spiritist séances as have the rest of the band. Now this song was from 92 so we see that Dio never really came to reject all of this nonsense.

    If you want to learn how the spiritists envision the afterlife read "The Spiritist Fallacy" (though I must warn you that spiritist theories are entirely ridiculous). As ridiculous as it is it does not stop other top bands like Iron Maiden from believing in reincarnation and spiritism. I have a theory that Eddie the head was named after the Eddy bros, but that is beside the point.

    I agree with Harris’ statement in “Prodigal son”: “I’ve messed around with mystic things and magic for far too long.”

    But if it weren’t for the band members getting trashed all day they’d probably have had enough sense to write better tunes!
    "The human state is an exit." -Frithjof Schuon

    "Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, in the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light." -Rig Veda IX.113

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