View Poll Results: Do you have to speak a Germanic language to be Germanic?

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  • Yes!

    104 49.52%
  • No!

    106 50.48%
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Thread: Is Speaking a Germanic Language Necessary to Be Considered Germanic?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oski Von Skadi View Post

    + Say some south african (white) family lost their son in the jungle, he survives like some kind of 'tarzan', is a complete savage and speaks in clicks? Is he reclassified as a negrid or khoisanid* etc?

    Hah...I actually had te Tarzan example in my mind. Many here seem to view germanicnes plainly through racial context, although the term is much loaded with Linguistics and culture. We really cannot define Germanic race, can we? Well, atleast sub-race. We can define Germanic languages, though. Nevertheless blood is vital part and as I said ten times before I believe linguistics are heritage are pretty much tied together on the issue!

    Tarzan is indeed tricky example but pretty much similar to Gisele, both born to Germanic parents and forced to adapt to different environment with new language. However, these are not everyday cases to solve!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterThaGreat View Post
    I am sure she defines her a Brazilian, not Germanic.
    Self-identification doesn't quite work out. So if a Turk grew up in Germany and doesn't speak a word of Turkish (usually they do, but some don't) - is he not still a Turk. I refuse to see even second- or third-generation people who are purely Turkish by blood but identify as German as anything but Turks, or "people of Turkish descent" at best.

    Hence, whilst language is obviously a great carrier of language, I believe that it is your blood that determines whether you are Germanic or not.

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  4. #33
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    "Germanicness", a modern invention of first and foremost linguistic (and, moreover, historically linguistic*) signification, is complex to contemplate in real life, though it doesn't make the term unsignificant (or we would not be discussing it there).

    Germanic means, very basically, part of the Germanic language family.

    Germanic blood, or ancestry, means that one's lineage was part of the historical migrations of the Germanic-speaking people of Europe, in Europe and elsewhere.

    Germanic culture means the result of the settling of a or many Germanic peoples. This is indicated by language in most cases, though Germanic languages have the power to Germanized other languages and other cultures, as other languages can influence Germanic languages and cultures. This makes things even more complex.

    And, last but not least, Germanic allegiance means that an individual is loyal, feels from the very bottom of his heart a connection and bound with the current AND historical "Germanic" societies. This is not something entirely rational, in that it can't be written on a paper that one is of Germanic allegiance or not. It is not clear-cut, and to me it renders it even more profund.

    I wonder how an individual of full Germanic ancestry could be considered Germanic if this one person does not identify as Germanic (allegiance) and does not speak a Germanic language (the native language vs learnt language isn't much of a debate for me, I'll talk about it later). If Gisele Bundchen would learn German (or English, which she most likely already speaks), and realize she is a Germanic individual, she would be one. If she spends her days talking Portuguese on some Brazilian beach without having any knowledge or interest in Germanic history, she is not.

    This final paragraph is for PeterThaGreat (very Germanic nickname, by the way :p). I don't distinguish the difference between native and learnt or second languages because there is so ambiguous in many cases. You can be raised in two languages, you can be raised in one language but practiced the dominant language (non-Germ.) of your country most of the time (as it is the case with many Finnish-Swedes, I guess). You can very well be born and bred Germanic, and go live in Russia or China and speak these language most of the time and has an allegiance to these foreign countries. I don't think your first language is everything, though it is important.

    PS I voted yes, but not in the sense that a Germanic language should be your first in an absolute way. You should master at least one Germanic language, however, that is clear to me.
    "The heavenly motions... are nothing but a continuous song for several voices, perceived not by the ear but by the intellect,
    a figured music which sets landmarks
    in the immeasurable flow of time."

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    So if a Turk grew up in Germany and doesn't speak a word of Turkish (usually they do, but some don't) - is he not still a Turk.
    He is not, that's why they get bullyed quite a bit in Turkey, or better put that's not us to decide, however this doesn't make him German, there is no need to atomize the prerequesites
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    Is Gisele Bündchen Germanic? She does not speak German but she is of 100% German ancestry. Her parents are fluent in German. She has also learned to speak English fluently.

    The sort of exclusivity employed by the OP really doesn't serve much good.

    IMO, we should group together, not separate ourselves by petty differences.

    Gisele is both, a German-Brazilian, simple as that (and a beautiful example of German genes, while we're at it).

    By the OP's logic, Africans in South Africa speaking Afrikaners are "Germanic."

    Languages change over time, and even what is spoken in Germany today is nowhere close to what it was spoken 3000, hell, even 1000 years ago. It's simply not the deciding factor, since it morphs so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    What about Admiral Wilhelm Canaris? It has been said he was of Greek ancestry although nobody every questioned him being a German.
    Believing that Hitler's foreign ambitions were dangerous to Germany, he enlisted some of the anti-Hitler conspirators into the Abwehr and shielded their activities. After an investigation of the Abwehr by the SS (after the abortive assassination attempt against Hitler in 1944), he was arrested and executed for high treason.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrodwulf View Post
    By the OP's logic, Africans in South Africa speaking Afrikaners are "Germanic."
    No, nowhere is mentioned that speaking a Germanic language is enough to be Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrodwulf View Post
    Languages change over time, and even what is spoken in Germany today is nowhere close to what it was spoken 3000, hell, even 1000 years ago. It's simply not the deciding factor, since it morphs so much.
    It doesn't matter if it changes, as long as it changes from within, it still stays Germanic.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  10. #39
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    Was the beloved Finnish author Anni Swan Germanic?

    "Anni Swan was born in Helsinki, but she spent her childhood first in Janakkala and then in Vanaja, in the village of Rekola. Her father, Carl Gustaf Swan (1839-1916), was a Swedish-speaking Fennomane. Emmy Malin (1836-1917), her mother, was the daughter of a teacher, also from a Swedish-speaking family."

    http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/anniswan.htm

    Anni Swan was of wholly Germanic ancestry, her mother tongue was Swedish but she wrote in Finnish and identified herself as a Finn. Thus, she was a Finn.

    BTW, I made a thread about her daughter-in-law:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.p...2596#post12596

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    Was the beloved Finnish author Anni Swan Germanic?

    "Anni Swan was born in Helsinki, but she spent her childhood first in Janakkala and then in Vanaja, in the village of Rekola. Her father, Carl Gustaf Swan (1839-1916), was a Swedish-speaking Fennomane. Emmy Malin (1836-1917), her mother, was the daughter of a teacher, also from a Swedish-speaking family."

    http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/anniswan.htm

    Anni Swan was of wholly Germanic ancestry, her mother tongue was Swedish but she wrote in Finnish and identified herself as a Finn. Thus, she was a Finn.

    BTW, I made a thread about her daughter-in-law:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.p...2596#post12596
    Good question indeed! According to many here, she'd be Germanic because she's of Germanic blood! Well, she is native to germanic language and culture as well, but turned her back towards her heritage! She is Germanic, I don't think loyalty to a non-Germanic country makes one non-germanic as such. Her children would be another case, though! There were actually many, well not too many, similar occasion in Swedish Finland at the turn of 19th and 20th century and as results our numbers are only 6% of the population today contrasted to 25% in the 17th century!

    EDIT

    This final paragraph is for PeterThaGreat (very Germanic nickname, by the way ). I don't distinguish the difference between native and learnt or second languages because there is so ambiguous in many cases. You can be raised in two languages, you can be raised in one language but practiced the dominant language (non-Germ.) of your country most of the time (as it is the case with many Finnish-Swedes, I guess). You can very well be born and bred Germanic, and go live in Russia or China and speak these language most of the time and has an allegiance to these foreign countries. I don't think your first language is everything, though it is important.
    My nic refers just to my first name, sort of nickname I've been given by American friend. I belive native tongue, mother-tongue has a huge impact to one's identity, allthough in the global world its importance is clearly diminishing! Unfortunately, like you said I have to operate in a foreign language too often.

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