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Thread: Mocheno / Bersntolerisch - Germanic language in N. Italy

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    Mocheno / Bersntolerisch - Germanic language in N. Italy

    Mocheno is an Upper German dialect spoken in three towns of the Fersina valley (German: Fersental, Italian: Valle del Fersina, Mocheno: Bersntol), in Trentino-South Tyrol, Northeastern Italy. Mocheno is related to Austro-Bavarian and is variously classified either as a Southern Bavarian dialect or as a seperate Germanic language on its own. Mocheno speakers reportedly partially understand Bavarian, Cimbrian, or Standard German, which argues for classifiying it as a dialect. However, many essential differences in grammar, vocubulary and pronunciation, render it practically unintelligible for speakers of German or Austro-Bavarian, so it may be more justified to consider Mocheno as a seperate Germanic language.

    As of 1992, Mocheno was spoken by 1.900 speakers, including 400 in Fierozzo (Vlarotz/Florutz), 1.000 in Palu del Fersina (Palae/Palai), and 460 in Frassilongo (Garait/Gereut).

    www.bersntol.it

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    The proof for it being a German dialect is that as a speaker of a different Upper German Dialect - Oberländerisch, spoken in the west of Northern Tyrol; part of the Südbairisch dialects - I actually find it easier to understand this dialect than let's say the North Frisian's native Sölring dialect.

    Example about Palai en Bernstol, one of the municipalities

    Bersntolerisch

    De Gamoa’ va Palai ist groas 16,72 kmq: 1359,08 èktar sai’ paut, 664,12 èktar sai’ bòlt ont 37,33 èktar sai’ en de heach ont trong nicht.
    Palai ist toalt en zboa sticker, Auserpòch ont Inderpòch.
    S gamoa’haus vinnt se en Auserpòch kan Lenzer as 1360 m s.l.m. De niderste heacheket ist as 1150 m as de Bersn as de mòrch pet Oachpèrg ont Garait, de heacheste ist as 2415 m as en spitz van Rojoch.
    De mòrchn va de gamoa’ sai’ : ka Nord Badul ont Baselga, ka Ovest Oachpèrg, ka Sud-Ovest Vlarotz, ka Sud Tortschai ont ka Est Telve.


    Deutsch

    Das Gebiet der Gemeinde Palai/Palù erstreckt sich über eine Fläche von 16,72 km2, davon sind 1359,08 ha Ackerland, 664,12 ha Wald und 37,33 ha unproduktive Hochgebirgszone.
    Das Gemeindegebiet unterteilt sich in zwei gleichartige Landstriche, Auserpòch (außerhalb des Baches) und Inderpòch (innerhalb des Baches).
    Der Gemeindesitz befindet sich in Auserpòch im Ortsteil Lenzi auf 1360 m ü.d.M. Der niedrigste Punkt des Gebietes liegt auf 1150 m am Wildbach Fersina, an der Grenze zu Sant’Orsola, der höchste auf der Spitze des Monte Rujòch, 2415 m.
    Die Gemeindegrenzen sind: im Norden Bedollo und Baselga di Pinè, im Westen Sant’Orsola, im Südwesten Florutz/Fierozzo, im Süden Torcegno und im Osten Telve di Sopra und Telve.

    English
    The territory of the municipality of Palù/Palae stretches for 16.72 km2 of which 1,359.08 hectares are land under cultivation, 664.12 hectares are woods and 37.33 hectares are high mountain barren land.
    The territory is subdivided in two homogenous zones: Auserpòch (or outside the river) and Inderpòch (or inside the river).
    The municipal town hall is in Auserpòch, Località Lenzi at an altitude of 1360 m. The lowest part of the territory (1150 m) is at the river Férsina, on the border with Sant’Orsola, while the highest point (2415 m) is the peak of Mount Rujòch.
    The municipality borders with Bedollo and Baselga di Pinè to the north, Sant’Orsola to the west, Fierozzo/Vlarötz to the southwest, Torcegno to the south and Telve di Sopra and Telve to the east.

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    Wow! Thanks for that info Sigurd. I been wondering if there was a dialect in the South-Tyrol/Northeastern Italy because i have ancestors from that part of Austria I always tought my surname would be written in a dialect because it doesn't sound neither german nor italian.

    Bersntolerisch

    De Gamoa’ va Palai ist groas 16,72 kmq: 1359,08 èktar sai’ paut, 664,12 èktar sai’ bòlt ont 37,33 èktar sai’ en de heach ont trong nicht.
    Palai ist toalt en zboa sticker, Auserpòch ont Inderpòch.
    S gamoa’haus vinnt se en Auserpòch kan Lenzer as 1360 m s.l.m. De niderste heacheket ist as 1150 m as de Bersn as de mòrch pet Oachpèrg ont Garait, de heacheste ist as 2415 m as en spitz van Rojoch.
    De mòrchn va de gamoa’ sai’ : ka Nord Badul ont Baselga, ka Ovest Oachpèrg, ka Sud-Ovest Vlarotz, ka Sud Tortschai ont ka Est Telve.
    Of course, reading it in that dialect I didn't understand a word :p, but for the composition and sound of those words, it doesn't sound out of context the word TOLOY, wich is my surname by the way (I think the correct form of it is TOLOI, but I also found it like TOLLOI, TÖLOY, etc.)

    Don't you know anyone who speaks those dialects? I'd like very much to know waht does my surname means!
    "Cuando la Patria está en peligro, todo está permitido excepto no defenderla"
    José de San Martín

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafner View Post
    Don't you know anyone who speaks those dialects? I'd like very much to know waht does my surname means!
    Nope, because it's not a Southern Tyrolese dialect, but even farther south than that, really. Southern Tyrolese speak a dialect that is very similar to standard Tyrolese. Now, I'm not sufficiently fluent in Southern Tyrolese, but the (Oberland) Northern Tyrolese version of abovementioned text would be:

    Es Gebiet vo da Gmoande Pali astrekht si iaba a Flächn vo 16.72 km2, 139,08 ha davon sein Ackerland, 664.12 ha Wåld und 27,33 unprodukhtive Hochhgebirgszonnen.
    's Gmonadegebiet isch in zwoa gleichhårtige Låndstrich untertoalt, Aussapoch und Innapoch. Da Gmoandesitz isch in Aussapoch im Ortsotal Lenzi auf 1360 m. Da niadrigschte Punkht vom Gebiat isch auf 1150m am Wildboch Fersina, an da Grenz zu Sant'orsola, da hägschte auf da Spitz von Monte Rujoch, 2415m.
    Die Gmonadegrenzen sein: im Nordn Bedollu und Baselga die Pine, im Weschtn Sant' Orsola, im Siadweschtn Florutz und im Siadn Torcegno, und im Oschtn Telve di Sopra und Telve.

    he word TOLOY, wich is my surname by the way (I think the correct form of it is TOLOI, but I also found it like TOLLOI, TÖLOY, etc.)
    I know a person with that same surname, spellt as TOLLOY however, so that is indeed a Tyrolese, more specificially Southern Tyrolese name. You are quite right, that is a name that certainly isn't foreign to me - even though I cannot say whether it is a Germanised version of an Italian name or not. Even if it is, though, it would have to be at least 200 years German-Tyrolese.

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    Extinct German Dialect ?

    I've come across an ancient German dialect related to Lombard or Bavarian.

    Its called Mocheno Deutsch and was present in southern Austria, the Tyrolian and Friulian regions of northern Italy.

    Is it extinct like Latin or is it still spoken, even if only for medical or literary purposes ?

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    Google? Wikipedia?
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Google? Wikipedia?
    Do you care to elaborate ?

    I was hoping to get more information than a referal to Wiki or Google !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peoples Observer View Post
    Is it extinct like Latin or is it still spoken, even if only for medical or literary purposes ?
    According to the census of 2001, the first in which data on mother tongue were recorded, Mocheno was spoken by a majority in the following municipalities (numbers of members of the Mòcheno linguistic group): Fierozzo/Florutz/Vlarotz (423 people, 95,92%), Palù/Palai/Palae (184 people, 95,34%), Frassilongo/Gereut/Garait (340 people, 95,24% - including the village of Roveda/Eichleit/Oachlait). In other municipalities of Trentino 1331 persons declared themselves members of the Mòcheno linguistic group, a total of 2278 in Trentino. Other sources state that Mòcheno is spoken by the whole population of Eichleit and Palai, a majority in Florutz, and by a small minority in the village of Gereut[1].
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mocheno_language
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Holy Heritage: Mòcheno, A Language Almost Extinct

    Mòcheno is an Austro-Bavarian Germanic language spoken in the province of Trento, in the northeast of Italy. Originally from southern Germany, the Mòcheno people migrated to the Fersina Valley for mining work during the Middle Ages.

    At the foot of the Fiemme Alps lie the municipalities of Fierozzo, Frassilongo and Palù del Fersina where Mòcheno is still spoken, albeit by only 2,270 people. Mòchene merchants, called “cromeri,” played an important role in preserving the German language in their community, which was essential for trade with the Austro-Hungarian Empire.





    Despite a desire to stick to old ways, Mòcheno couldn’t combat mixed marriages and the Italinization of their culture, especially after the fall of the Reich, when families, who had migrated to Germany to get citizenship and land, were forced to return to Trentino as traitors. These Mòchene stopped teaching their children the language to avoid prejudice.

    The vitality of the Mòcheno language has been revived thanks to the development of tourism and the creation of the Mòcheno-Cimbrian Cultural Institute to preserve and promote the language.

    Omio

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