Poll: Are you pan-Germanic?

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Thread: Nationalism or Pan-Germanicism? / Inter-Germanic Unity or Inter-Germanic Aparthood?

  1. #31
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    Post Re : Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    Still the point is that the case of France is more of a Germanic people (Franks, Burgundians) having seized lands that are not Germanic (Breizh, Occitania), rather than a non-Germanic people having done the contrary.
    Here we're again. Your day dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    So, by releasing the non-Germanic areas under France you get a more Germanic France, included Elsass-Lothringen and the Southern Netherlands.
    "Chimères"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjerre
    I don't see how Germanics can be 'occupiers' in France. They are just people who have been there for thousands of years. They are occupyed by Romantic Paris.
    Romantic Paris? Yeah, it's a romantic city. But I guess you meant Romance Paris. Nothing Romance per se there.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.

    « -Oh my God, but you're a neo-nazi?!...
    -But why neo? »

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    Post Re: Re : Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    It is a natural entity, distinct from the state.
    I agree it can be distinct.
    I don't know if I am prepared to go as far as Bjerre has gone in divorcing the nation from the land: I think the original homeland might still be relevant.
    You're correct, it is relevant today politically.
    In my opinion, it is primarily the idea that the nation is the state which is counterproductive to pan-Germanicism.
    That's why we need to return to a Germanic empire.
    This is where nationalism often runs into a major problem. When I consider nationalism, I think of efforts to make the nation and the state coextensive. This includes expanding the borders of the state if necessary to encompass nationals not under the state's control (such as might be the case with the present German state and as was certainly the case with Weimar Germany). It also includes regulating the affairs of the state so as to eliminate everything from within the state's jurisdiction which the ruling nationalists deem detrimental to the nation. Once nationalism becomes complete, the result is a nation-state, and once that happens it starts to become difficult to remember the difference between the nation and the state.
    I would say that the National Socialists had the correct idea with independant nations but strong solid alliances.

    A simplistic example would be breaking the EU between Germanics, Mediterraneans, and Slavs. Re-naming the orgs and then having favored trade status with fellow European nations but full members could only be of the same national ethne.
    This is especially true given the fact that once any major nation succeeds in creating a nation-state, minor nations and states around it will also want the same distinction. So when England, France, Germany, and Italy all succeeded in creating nation-states, places like Norway, Denmark, and Sweden all wanted part of the action as well.
    Yeah, again though I'd cite back to Europe in the 1930's as it's a much better indicator of tomorrow than Europe during the 1330's.
    In reality, there seems little reason to separate the Scandinavian nation into various states, but since they have each had histories of political independence, they each feel that they are also nationally independent.
    I think Norway knows it's a fake nation and belongs with Sweden.

    In the future it wouldn't be hard to recreate the awesome Nordish empire of King Knut sans Britain of course.

    I can't wait to read the discussion when you start the thread aabout returning to a commoner language. I think that English will have to be abandoned and that it'd be enough if everyone learned German or a Scandinavian language for the first few generations.
    (Note too that I don't think a Swiss-style linguistic federalism will work — English would dominate and take over, eventually even displacing German, and that would lead to resentment and fragmentation — remember that Swiss German, Swiss French, and Swiss Italian can only survive because of Germany, France, and Italy.)

    Are pan-Germanicism and nationalism incompatible? Not necessarily, but a lot of work has to be done to create a conception of a common Germanic nation in order to let the two ideologies mesh. It was a lot of work to get the various German states to see Deutschland über alles, and they still had more in common than we all have today. Without that kind of pan-Germanic nation-building at the social level — and I'm talking about huge efforts in language, arts, literature, culture, trade, tourism, &c. — I think nationalism will always be somewhat opposed to pan-Germanicism.
    Excellent.



    Quote Originally Posted by Weg
    Romantic Paris? Yeah, it's a romantic city. But I guess you meant Romance Paris. Nothing Romance per se there.
    Yes, I meant romance.


    Paris in it's golden days.... Ooo-la-la!
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    Last edited by Cole Nidray; Thursday, October 13th, 2005 at 06:51 PM.

  3. #33
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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Romantic spirit is alive and kicking among you, Gentlemen.
    But a sort of authoritarian one - too, and this one is kicking even more vigirously.

    As a Norwegian subject (citizen) I would like to warn some (most?) of you: please, take realities into consideration.
    A party of ethnic-conscious guys like you (we) has a tendency to reshuffle in our dreams a lot of history, culture and human material in order to reach our goals.
    We shouldn't forget that amongst us live people who don't share many of our dreams and goals.

    Down to earth: Telling Norwegians that their land belongs to Sweden is anathema. A mere 100 years of independence was enough to build a nation who belongs to itself only. Are you prepared to use force to reconnect Norway and Sweden?

    On the other side: are you prepared, in all seriousness to remove ca.20 million Poles from lands that once belonged to the Reich? Just how far are you going to go in the building of the Germanic Union (the name thereby patented by me)?
    Are you going to achieve your goals peacefully or otherwise? France has nuclear weapons, if you chance to have forgotten this.


    My vision of a Germanic Union is thus:

    Many countries of Western and Central Europe are predominantly Germanic by ethnic and linguistic standards. I do feel more at home in Austria or England than (by many lengths) Spain or Italy. It's obvious.

    There comes a day when our nations will say: Enough is enough! We have been downtrodden and cheated for too long. WE want out of EUs, GATTs, Human Rights organizations etc, etc....Above all - WE want to be hosts in our lands. We don't want anything to do with Turkey, Ukraine and we refuse to keep subsidizing Spain, Greece and suchlike. The've been sucking us white for too long. (Maybe that's why we stayed white, against all odds!).

    The first step at all must in any case be shaking off the shackles put on us by "cosmopolites" and our own shabes-goyim. It is maybe the most difficult task of all. I cannot even imagine, how it could be achieved.
    The next step would be purification, by sending brown and other minorities home. A very difficult task, easy only in dreams. But, let's say - we have reached the level of ethnic consciousness and political (and any other necessay) power to do both.

    The next step would be to buid a sort of loose political entity, a nucleus of Germanic Union, sovereign politically, economically and militarily. Then goes removing internal borders and erection of external ones, to repel outsiders. Around this nucleus might gravitate other nations or lands, the force of gravitation depending on our grade of kinship with them and our political, military and economic interest.

    I presume (once we 've began dreaming) that it's not unimaginable that USA might follow our example by crystallizing the best human material out of the present morass and become reborn, in some geographic boundaries as a purely white, Germanic or (more probably and far more realistically) - White nation.


    More to the point of the thread: IMO the strong feelings of nationality in our peoples will not be eradicated within a hundred years. Nations and nationalisms will
    probably survive for centuries. Which does not preclude the creation of Germanic Union, providing that national feelings are respected and not downtrodden.

    I don't see any serious conflicts of Germanic nationalisms, which might preclude creation of GU, as long as the dominating power in our Union respects the other nationalities' rights and equal status within GU (NOT meaning one nation - one vote, of course).
    On the contrary, I have a feeling that true nationalists in Germanic countries would welcome such a union, and the more nationally minded citizens - the more likely the execution of my vision. I think.




  4. #34
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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Bjerre, I like most of what you have said. I do think I need to clarify one of my points, though, in light of your response thereto:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjerre
    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    This is especially true given the fact that once any major nation succeeds in creating a nation-state, minor nations and states around it will also want the same distinction. So when England, France, Germany, and Italy all succeeded in creating nation-states, places like Norway, Denmark, and Sweden all wanted part of the action as well.
    Yeah, again though I'd cite back to Europe in the 1930's as it's a much better indicator of tomorrow than Europe during the 1330's.
    Although one might say that the building of the French nation-state began as early as the 1330s and the building of the English nation-state was clearly already completed by then, the building of the German, Italian, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian nation-states has all occurred during the 19th and 20th centuries. It is this 19th- and early 20th- century nationalism that I see as an indicator of tomorrow, not anything from the distant past. Indeed, I think what makes most nationalism incompatible with pan-Germanicism is the frequent nationalist tendency to try to hearken back to a medieval past, a time when nations were highly fragmented by competing petty states. A nationalist model that can be compatible with pan-Germanicism, in my opinion, is the pan-Germanism movement of the 19th century.

    Astorp, welcome to the forum! I can tell from reading your post here that I'm going to enjoy reading what you have to say in the future. I do feel that I ought to answer some of the questions and concerns you have raised, though.

    First let me say that I do not believe that Norway belongs to Sweden, or to Denmark, or vice versa. Rather, I believe that they belong together. I could also say that I think my wife Godiva and I belong together or that my brothers and I belong together, and for much the same reasons. I would never try to force the union, nor would I consider one the dominant member of the union. Rather, if I felt there were distance in the union (which union I believe ought to exist), I would try first to create greater intimacy in hopes that that alone would strengthen the natural mutual bonds. If the rift were great, I might discuss the rift itself and make explicit my desire to reunite. But if my wife or my brother refused, I could only be sad. I am always in favor of uniting, but never of unifying.

    Apply this sort of mentality also, I'd say, to dealing with Poles and the French, although I think it's good to remember Mynydd's point that
    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    the case of France is more of a Germanic people (Franks, Burgundians) having seized lands that are not Germanic (Breizh, Occitania), rather than a non-Germanic people having done the contrary. So, by releasing the non-Germanic areas under France you get a more Germanic France, included Elsass-Lothringen and the Southern Netherlands.
    Also let me say that I think you're right in saying this will take a long time and a lot of work. Undoing the fragmentation of the Germanic people would be much much harder than undoing the fragmentation of the German people was in the 19th century, and that took decades to reach a point where the people would accept a nation-state.

    And then to see if I have understood you correctly, Astorp, let me ask: would you say you see nationalism as it currently exists in each of the Germanic countries as a necessary stepping-stone to a larger pan-Germanic goal? If so, I find that an intersting response to Sigel's original question. Given the fact that so many nationalists of the various states put their own state first, even to the detriment of other Germanics, would you say that our best bet toward supporting pan-Germanicism would be to try to alter the current nationalisms so that they are more accepting of pan-Germanicism? or to wait until the current nationalisms have gained control of their respective states to try to build the broad social support necessary for a Germanic Union?

    I would like to discuss the idea of building a pan-Germanic nation further, but I'm starting to feel like that is a bit too far from the original topic of this thread. I have to run and do some library research for another project right now, but in a few hours I'll be back and I plan then to start a thread about building a pan-Germanic nation — I think we've got some good ideas here that need a little fermentation. I'll link to it from this thread. Bjerre, I will also start a thread on restoring the Germanic language in the linguistics section soon (in a matter of days), and I'll link to that thread from the thread on building the pan-Germanic nation.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Hello Astorp!
    Quote Originally Posted by Astorp

    Are you prepared to use force to reconnect Norway and Sweden?

    Are Norweigans prepared to resist?

    It would be a peaceful union though if it was to happen as Leofric said.
    On the other side: are you prepared, in all seriousness to remove ca.20 million Poles from lands that once belonged to the Reich? Just how far are you going to go in the building of the Germanic Union (the name thereby patented by me)?
    Just as far as the Czechs when they evicted millions of Germans from the Sudetenland only we'll give them compensation.
    Are you going to achieve your goals peacefully or otherwise? France has nuclear weapons, if you chance to have forgotten this.
    Peacefully, but do you really think France would use nuclear weapons on a target so near to herself?

    I like your pragmatic vision of success in the future.

    You're right about America being "White". In America you are considered "White" if you don't qualify for state benefits based on European ethne and you aren't Jewish.

    ---

    My scheme for getting Scandinavia to unite if they are too stupid to do so themselves is simple.

    Dissolve the EU into a Germanic branch (let the Med nationalists figure out what they want to do with their share) then subdivide the Germanic branch into Scandinavian and German/(what is today) Northern Italy.

    Force Scandinavia together by making them all use a common currency different from Greater Germany and then gradually centralize their government politically with this little trick South African style,

    Have three capitals, Judicial, Legislative, and Executive spread throughout Norway, Denmark, and Sweden.

    This will result in a Scandinavia that is fragmented yet united and can easily be encompassed into Greater Germany in a matter of years with a simple currency change and minor adjustments.

    (of course that's just one of many schemes to dismantle the dangerous rogue states of Scandinavia)

    Finland?

    Not really a concern, they can have favored status. They'll want in eventually.

    though one might say that the building of the French nation-state began as early as the 1330s and the building of the English nation-state was clearly already completed by then, the building of the German, Italian, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian nation-states has all occurred during the 19th and 20th centuries. It is this 19th- and early 20th- century nationalism that I see as an indicator of tomorrow, not anything from the distant past.
    This is better than I had assumed but still I disagree, I'll let you know why...
    Indeed, I think what makes most nationalism incompatible with pan-Germanicism is the frequent nationalist tendency to try to hearken back to a medieval past, a time when nations were highly fragmented by competing petty states. A nationalist model that can be compatible with pan-Germanicism, in my opinion, is the pan-Germanism movement of the 19th century.
    I disagree with this for the main reason that Herr Hitler gave Germans a past that (incredibly enough) eclipses the medieval and even 19th century tribal mentality, totally.

    The past that will be harked back to will be NS Germany.

    I see Nationalism and Pan-Germanism/ Germanicism as compatible because it will be Nationalists working together and they will form an empire whether or not they wish to call it that.

    Nationalism within an empire is the big brother to healthy state's rights *ism* within a nation.

    America has always been an empire in this sense......

    We used to have such powerful state's rights and we are infact a "Union of States" rather than a nation.
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    Never in our Constitution or Declaration of Independence are the words, "country" or "nation" used.

    America still has military detachments that are based and staffed only with residents of certain states.

    We have been an empire since we set out west.

  6. #36
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    Thumbs Up Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Astorp,

    Please excuse me, as I will be brief. I'm rather tired and have suffered from 24 hours of insomnia.

    I presume (once we 've began dreaming) that it's not unimaginable that USA might follow our example by crystallizing the best human material out of the present morass and become reborn, in some geographic boundaries as a purely white, Germanic or (more probably and far more realistically) - White nation.
    The United States is lost, to this type of thinking. The country is finished, in my opinion.

    You are correct, when you imply that we have to dream, to make unity a realization, in the United States.

    I received this bulletin on my profile page of MySpace, not too long ago, and it basically sums up, how things are in Amerika, as of now. Please do not assume that I wrote any of this. I am just passing the bulletin on, to you folks, for consideration:

    You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction.

    You call me "Cracker", "Honkey", "Whitey" and even "The Man" and you think it's OK.


    But when I call you, "******", "Kike", "Towelhead", "Sand-******", "Camel Jockey", "Beaner" or "Chink" you call me a racist.

    You say that whites, commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the ghettos, the most dangerous places to live?

    You say that you want to make a change in this country...

    How? By protesting everything that we believe in? By trying to change everything that has made this country run fine for centuries?

    You have Martin Luther King Day.
    You have Yom Hashoah
    You have Cinco de Mayo
    You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi

    If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.

    In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights...

    If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.

    You enjoy the thought of Driver's Licenses for illegals...

    We enjoy the thought of people obeying the laws of the land in which they reside. No negotiations.

    You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it...

    But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.

    You call each other "******", but when we call you that, you call us racists.

    You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a gang member or beats up a drug-dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him racist.

    We work hard to perserve our history.
    You come along and try to re-write it.

    We want a safe environment for our families and children.
    You want to bring the ghetto to our neighborhoods.

    I am white.
    I am proud.
    I am an American.

    But, you call me racist.
    This country is finished, because of it's liberal views. Liberalism, is shoved down our throats, at every turn. The problem is, that liberalism, in this country, the United States, only applies to the immoral amongst us. To be liberal, and speak your mind, about preserving your Germanic culture, is considered Racism.

    We allow immoral conduct to run rampant, whilst our laws protect those who wish to perpetuate it. To disagree with the confused views of this nation, is treasonous.

    In fact, I'm sure I'll be getting a knock at the door, from some of the folks at Langley (Central Intelligence Agency), just because I've posted here.

    This is the current situation in this country, so do not look for help from Amerika. It will not come.

    The people who run this country, it's corporations, will not allow it.

    To perpetuate ignorance, allows them to control the populace. To educate, will spell their doom...

    It will not be allowed to happen.

  7. #37
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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    I would like to discuss the idea of building a pan-Germanic nation further, but I'm starting to feel like that is a bit too far from the original topic of this thread. I have to run and do some library research for another project right now, but in a few hours I'll be back and I plan then to start a thread about building a pan-Germanic nation — I think we've got some good ideas here that need a little fermentation. I'll link to it from this thread. Bjerre, I will also start a thread on restoring the Germanic language in the linguistics section soon (in a matter of days), and I'll link to that thread from the thread on building the pan-Germanic nation.
    I've started the promised thread on Building a Pan-Germanic Nation. I think it's valuable to have this current thread as a place to discuss the compatibility of nationalism as it currently exists in each Germanic country and pan-Germanicism, so I want to keep it uncluttered from our recently developing discussion on building a pan-Germanic nation. Bjerre, I'm hoping to hear more from you on the new thread about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjerre
    The past that will be harked back to will be NS Germany.
    Let's hear your full plan in a bit of detail, I say. Astorp, your comments will be helpful as well. Jibby (welcome ), you have warned us to
    not look for help from Amerika.
    Point taken. Where do you think help will come from? Anyone else who wants to join in that discussion, please come to the new thread and do so. I hope we can have some really good talk about this idea.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    The first Jews arrived in the colony of New Amsterdam.
    New Amsterdam was a settlement/ city now known as New York, not a colony.

    Interesting link my friend but Sombart is incorrect.

    The letter cited, "March 26, 1665" to allow Jews into New Amsterdam does not predate Jewish arrival in Rhode Island.

    I'm studying this right now but instead of quoting my book I just grabbed this link,

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...vjw/rhode.html
    Newport, Rhode Island is the historic home to one of the oldest and certainly most influential Jewish communities in early American history. These men and women arrived in Newport as early as 1658 and by the time of the American Revolution they grew to a population of over thirty families

  9. #39
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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    The first Jews arrived in the colony of New Amsterdam. Despite the opposition of the chief settler, Peter Stuyvesant, the Dutch West Indies Company forced them upon the settlers. The Dutch West Indies Company was also largely owned by Jewish shareholders, and even the president was a Jews (or was that in the East Indies Company?).

    Nice discussion, fellas.

    Anyways, yes it's true that there were Jews in early New Amsterdam--they were by and large Sephardic Jews from Iberia (thanks, Mynydd ) by way of the colony in Recife, in Brazil.

    A reasonable read:

    http://www.uwm.edu/~corre/occasionala/lisbon.html

    More:

    Unfortunately, for these expatriated Jews, the Portuguese defeated the Dutch and gained "Recife, Mauritestad, Parayba, Itamarica, Seara," and wherever else the Dutch had colonized. The Portuguese brought the Inquisition to Brazil, forcing 5,000 Jews out of Recife alone. Many returned to Holland; some went to London; others dispersed throughout the American colonies.

    New Amsterdam appeared a good choice for a few, but turned out to be hostile. The stern Calvinists requested the removal of the "non-believers," but the Dutch West Indies Co. sent an order to Gov. Peter Stuyvesant granting the Jews permission to stay. The order cited the significant proportion of Jewish investors in the Dutch West Indies Co. as a strong reason for accepting the Jews in New Amsterdam. In the interim between the Dutch West Indies Co.'s order to allow the Jews full participation in New Amsterdam and the Calvinists' request for their removal, some Jews chose to move to a less unsettling place.46

    http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTal...veSystem2.html



    I wouldn't however, overestimate their influence on colonial or early American life and culture outside of their limited spheres. Even by the time of the Revolution, there were only some 2000 in the Colonies--moslty in Newport, RI, New York and Philadelphia.

    If only Stuyvesant had gotten his way!

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    I can see how many will feel uneasy with Sombart's The Jews and Modern Capitalism. But his work is overall a most excellent piece of research.
    It's factually incorrect in regards to the first Jews in America.

    Perhaps he is talking about Khazars.

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