Poll: Are you pan-Germanic?

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Thread: Nationalism or Pan-Germanicism? / Inter-Germanic Unity or Inter-Germanic Aparthood?

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    Senior Member Deling's Avatar
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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    In today's EU any German can cross the border of Poland/Germany as easy as going from Thüringen to Bayern. Does it matter then if the Atlas shows a black line along Oder or along Wisla?

    EU borders today is nothing more than juristictions overlapping eachother nationally, regionally, over-nationally.

    I believe Pan-Germanism, as expressed by the 20th century romanticists, is incompatible with the nation-state. But in today's EU, Pan-Germanism is fullfilled. No iron curtains nor borders differ Germans in Europe from eachother anymore. But all Germans will never be under jurisdiction from Berlin, under one single nation-state.

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    Post Re: Re : Re: AW: Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theobald
    French nationalism is not against other European countries (except maybe England) :
    That's changed, thank god.

    http://www.bnp.org.uk/bnptv/paris2005.wmv

    I'm in a rush now but would like to come back to this thread.

    I believe that the Germanic lands in Europe should be protectorates or even provinces of a greater German state.

    The Dutch, Scandinavian, and other Germanic dialects should be mastered along with German. This will lead to a united German language with strong, yet understandable accents among the regional populations.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Militarily:

    The various special forces of today's Germanic countries should continue to be based in their respective homelands/ regions.

    I think that the Wehrmacht should be a proportionally representative SS-type force, in times of peace.

    All provinces should maintain their own national guardsmen with compulsory service that function as a ready-reserve, "ready" meaning they would become the official Wehrmacht (National Army) when mobilized.

    The peacetime Wehrmacht would then be bifurcated into the leadership corps of the new Wehrmacht and an independant elite force forged from the Special Forces and the best "conventional" arms, men, and technology to serve as force multipliers.

    Surely there are threads where more musings of this sort take place?
    Last edited by Aeternitas; Thursday, October 13th, 2005 at 05:08 AM.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Interesting thread.

    My take on it most will not agree with, but hay thats life!

    I am English Nationalist first, and pretty much only. I believe that England should be an independent, white, English nation-state. I support any nation that wishes to see itself independent. I am not isolationist, nor do I have hatred against any other European nation or, indeed, any race. But my loyalty will always be to England and England alone. I feel certain kinship to other nations. From a personal point of view Ireland and Denmark are examples.

    As most people will see from my other posts I don't believe it is possible to define modern European nations as "Germanic", "Celtic", "Slavic" etc. Sure some have more of these ethno-cultural traits than others. For example Sweden has more Germanic traits than England. England has more Celtic traits than Norway etc. Indeed I would argue that English is not really a Germanic language any longer, but that is another debate. But we are all pretty much culturally Western to varying degrees. I believe in the aim of preserving Germanic, and any other, cultural traits. For example England's Anglo-Saxon heritage should be promoted, as should our Viking heritage which is often over-looked.

    Nationalism, at its healthiest, should promote community, loyalty, and pride amongst the folk of that nation. Nationalism should not be built on opposition or imperialist ambitions. As an English Nationalist I seek to create an English state for the English people. I do not welcome any non-English encroachement on English soil. Just as I want to preserve England as the homeland for the English people, I will seek to aid my fellow Western comrades in preserving their homelands for their people.
    Wita sceal geşyldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrædwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fægen, ne to feohgifre ne næfre gielpes to georn, ær he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, şonne he beot spriceğ, oşşæt collenferğ cunne gearwe hwider hreşra gehygd hweorfan wille.

    http://www.odinic-rite.org/index2.html
    http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deling
    In today's EU any German can cross the border of Poland/Germany as easy as going from Thüringen to Bayern. Does it matter then if the Atlas shows a black line along Oder or along Wisla?

    EU borders today is nothing more than juristictions overlapping eachother nationally, regionally, over-nationally.

    I believe Pan-Germanism, as expressed by the 20th century romanticists, is incompatible with the nation-state. But in today's EU, Pan-Germanism is fullfilled. No iron curtains nor borders differ Germans in Europe from eachother anymore. But all Germans will never be under jurisdiction from Berlin, under one single nation-state.


    You are joking arent you? My god... E.U is nothing to compare with our pan-Germanic ideals. And these pan-Germanism is not fulfillede, ias far away from it. So what that someone can cross borders without problems. What is that saying anyway? Pan-Germanism is only fulfilled when people start speaking German again in Breslau, Danzig, Prag, Koenigsberg. Pan-Germanism doesnt include Slavs, and certainly not Polacks. When the descenders of the Heimat-vertriebenen can return to their original homes and claim it for Germany. Pan-Germanism is fulfilled when Flanders is going to get free of the Walloons, when Brussels become the Dutch speaking capital of Dietsland and when the by France occupied parts of Southern Netherlands all up to Somme river returns to the Diets people and the Diets state. Same caunts for Elsass-Lothringen. Pan-Germanism means that we do not an European superstate, we dont need Greeks, Slavs, portugese, Spanish. Pan-Germanism only exist - as far we t6alk about Europe- only about Germanic nations with an Germanic population: England, Dietsland, German Reich, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland. Nothing more, nothing less.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    However it is strange to notice that the most "offending country" mentioned by SN, France (Elsass-Lothringen, Southern Netherlands and, indirectly Flanders) is one identified as Western Germanic.
    *SK

    America is listed as a Germanic Colony and it's certainly an offending country. The listings refer more to a population and while France does have many Germanics it's not German enough to become part of a greater Germania just like America.
    The problem, however, is that then it doesn't point to an alien country having occupied Germanic territories.
    Poland and the Czech Republic can certainly be labelled as such.
    Apart from that, though it is a bit difficult to fully understand SN's text, it seems as if it points to a Germanicism which is in open alienation and isolation of and from Europe. I wouldn't see anything wrong with that providing Germanicists/Pan-Germanicists were all honest about it and said it clear.
    We want to be your neighbors, not roommates.
    Because just as he says that he (or they) have no need for Greeks, Slavs, Portuguese/Spanish, etc..
    Not in Germania.

    As allies and fellow Europeans? Always.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    Meaning?
    I believed by "SN" you where referencing "Saxonian Knight".

    What is "SN"?
    Like.. America? This part is not of my concern, really. So I'll make no comments on it.
    You were a fool once to ignore Europe and you'll be a fool again to ignore America.

    You need to adapt your strategy of Nationalism; you need to weigh the American factor, economically, militarily, and *ghast* culturally if you plan on countering it effectively.
    Still the point is that the case of France is more of a Germanic people (Franks, Burgundians) having seized lands that are not Germanic (Breizh, Occitania), rather than a non-Germanic people having done the contrary. So, by releasing the non-Germanic areas under France you get a more Germanic France, included Elsass-Lothringen and the Southern Netherlands.
    Meet me at the palais, let's divy her up.

    You can't blame the Germanics for being there or accuse them of seizing land, they are the ones besieged politically by corruption in Paris.
    I didn't mention those cases.
    I did.
    The problem, however, is that then it doesn't point to an alien country having occupied Germanic territories.
    The above quote lacked jurisdiction when applied to Germany.

    Again,

    I don't see how Germanics can be 'occupiers' in France. They are just people who have been there for thousands of years. They are occupyed by Romantic Paris.
    Well.. if you speak as an American, we don't want to be anything at all. "Westernism" has proved a devaluation for Europe.
    I speak as a pan-Germanic.

    Westernism is Europe's forged art.

    Americanism is Europe's deformed bastard, a synthesis of Westernism and Judaism.
    As for Germans, it is not about being neighbours of roommates. It is about choosing between Europe and America. As stated, America is a liability for Europe and that is what is unclear with this sui generis Germanicism.
    Germania and Europe will flourish with this sui jurius Germanicism.
    And pray tell, what makes him (or you) think that I would be interested in moving to "Germania"?
    Germanic women.

    Not you personally, I'm not sure of Mediterraneans.... We have many so-called Polish "Nationalists" who love to defend their "right" to migrate all over Germania.
    As it happens, the problem here is all the way round (too many Germanics in here and more on the move, to the point that we might even lend a hand for some German party in the next elections).
    Deport those deserters back to Germania.
    I was under the impression that the problem of Germany were the Turks, in The Netherlands the Moroccans and others, etc. But I don't see those countries mentioned, but ours. Obviously I was under a wrong impression. But it is always good to know.
    We aren't here to skewer Turks.

    Do they merit any debate at all?
    You seem a nice chap so far, so please take no offence in this.
    You can't out anti-Americanize me.
    I see no connection with America, and as far as Europe is concerned such "alliance" so far has implied a submission to American policies (which do not represent Europe's interests)
    I agree; I never offered such an alliance.

    America could have been greater Europe just as Greenland is still part of Denmark.

    America however chose to become a thoroughly judaized racially communitarian cesspit. Our pyre still burns, fueled by oil, greenbacks, and the blood of Gentiles.
    and to unwanted interferences of the U.S. in Europe (e.g. WWII, where only England -U.S. natural companion- profitted against the general interest of Europe, included Germany).
    I don't think England profited.
    Last edited by Cole Nidray; Wednesday, October 12th, 2005 at 10:26 PM.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mynydd
    Actually, I wasn't. Not if you have recently come out of a system which, while not perfect, it was free of the liberalism and socialism reigning in the E.U. Much has happened since and now we are in the same dump as the rest.
    By joining the Financial Union you should have been on guard instead of blindly opportunistic.
    There are other options. More so with a free Europe of sovereign nations working side by side. America's hostility against the rest of the world is not Europe's business.
    Not true.

    America's hostility is what forced the EU together.
    Often on the forums it has been Germanics who have presented themselves as victims of Southern Europeans. Admittedly, not Germans but mostly Americans of alleged X% Germanic ancestry. However, the reality is much different.
    Cheap shot.
    Doesn't sound much like a free Europe..
    You want to pay the price of a 'free' Europe?
    Believe me that it works in a way much different way to what is usually presumed.
    Har-dee har har.
    Should that include the children of the Germans who came after WWII looking for a refuge from persecution?
    The Eroberer/Conquistador Relocation Act is to be of your discretion.
    Yet we should. You might not see it from America, but anyone here could tell you that anything else is of secondary to no importance.
    Oh, I know all about the Turks.

    I just meant that their deportation a foregone conclusion among Nationalists.

    I don't think that a good natured irredentist joust between Nationalists will distract us.
    The origins of America are too wrong for that. Most early settlers were rejects from Europe,
    That's not true.

    America was not just a nation of rejects. The Colonies were bestowed upon adventurous nobility by the Kings of Europe and America was the most valuable European offshore property in the world since the 1600's.

    Many states take their names from European monarches.

    Negroes and Indians were and still are nothing, we were a proud European society.

    Georgia for instance was founded as "European Only" and it wasn't until corrupt businessmen wanted to emulate the plantations of neighboring states (many years later) that Negroes were allowed in.

    Only Europeans could be citizens until the 1880's.

    You have a dangerous mentality of a special European "Holy Land" that can be geographically defined.

    We must plan ahead millennia. Europe could be desert or underwater; in the future Earth will no longer exist.

    Attached are two images, one is Spain; the other is an irrelevant piece of dirt.
    and next to them were the Jews from day one
    Jews were only allowed in one freakish colony, Rhode Island.

    ---

    Rhode Island was founded by multi culti savage huggers.

    The agitator, Anne Hutchinson was banished from Massachusetts for advocating destructive anti-Euro policies and on the way to Rhode Island she was butchered by savages.
    Britain did. And despite the effort of some to return to an English identity, I doubt that the English can think of an English identity which is not Britain. "Englishness" is not something that they lost just recently.
    They can always return to a Germano-Celtic heritage.
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    Last edited by Cole Nidray; Thursday, October 13th, 2005 at 04:43 AM.

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    Post Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigel
    This is a question that has been on my mind for some time now and I figure Skadites may be equipped to answer. It seems that most people here accept the notion of a ‘Germanic culture’ and perhaps even race. (I don’t wish to debate anthropological and racial science here, so please interpret my statement in the way you consider to be the most correct).

    Our distant ancestors recognized this kinship (see the Anglo-Saxon poem The Wanderer) and linguistic and historical information back this up. I feel at home in any Germanic land and recognize that they all face similar problems of Globalization, Immigration, on a massive scale, and cultural disenfranchisement of their youth. Liberal & Leftist politicians are keen to dispel any notion of a common Germanic history or ethnic unity, as this would jeopardize their Multi-Cultural agenda.

    It seems the only way to oppose this trend is to back the Nationalist parties of each respective country, as they offer viable solutions for limiting and reversing immigration and preserving cultural identity.

    But some nationalist parties have, in my opinion, an unpleasant facet. They draw upon their nation’s ‘glorious’ history to engender a patriotic, chauvinistic and even aggressive attitude towards other nations, often rooted in territorial ambition. Although most pay some lip-service to the concept of ‘white/western’ culture, they make it clear that their citizens are ‘paramount’.

    In states run by such parties outside Germanic ‘foreigners’ may be at best tolerated but could find that some of the more extreme nationalists are even hostile towards them. My feeling is that this style of ‘exclusive’ nationalism inherently contradicts the notion of friendship, cooperation and understanding between Germanic kindred.

    Would others agree?
    I think your thoughts on this are good, Sigel. Are pan-Germanicism (I wish to distinguish between this and pan-Germanism, which I associate with the 19th-century unification of the various German states) and nationalism incompatible? A lot depends on the definitions of pan-Germanicism, Germanic, nationalism, and nation. The discussion on this thread seems to have included a lot of mutual misunderstanding because of unspoken yet differing definitions of these concepts.

    It is a natural entity, distinct from the state. As I have said elsewhere in regard to Rudyard Kipling and others, an Englishman is English no matter where he is. I don't know if I am prepared to go as far as Bjerre has gone in divorcing the nation from the land: I think the original homeland might still be relevant. He does have a good point though in saying that the future arability of the land is uncertain and that the nation must therefore be prepared to abandon the ancestral homeland.

    The idea that the nation is the state is what causes the internal divisions among Germanic people, and often Germanic states go to ridiculous lengths to find what makes them unique among their Germanic fellows (the Hardanger fiddle comes to mind as an example of a state's going too far to find something to build a nation). In my opinion, it is primarily the idea that the nation is the state which is counterproductive to pan-Germanicism.

    This is where nationalism often runs into a major problem. When I consider nationalism, I think of efforts to make the nation and the state coextensive. This includes expanding the borders of the state if necessary to encompass nationals not under the state's control (such as might be the case with the present German state and as was certainly the case with Weimar Germany). It also includes regulating the affairs of the state so as to eliminate everything from within the state's jurisdiction which the ruling nationalists deem detrimental to the nation. Once nationalism becomes complete, the result is a nation-state, and once that happens it starts to become difficult to remember the difference between the nation and the state.

    This is especially true given the fact that once any major nation succeeds in creating a nation-state, minor nations and states around it will also want the same distinction. So when England, France, Germany, and Italy all succeeded in creating nation-states, places like Norway, Denmark, and Sweden all wanted part of the action as well. In reality, there seems little reason to separate the Scandinavian nation into various states, but since they have each had histories of political independence, they each feel that they are also nationally independent. It is as odd as would be Mercia's declaring itself a separate nation from England simply because it was, at one time, an independent state. The Scandinavians have confused nation with state, and they have done so because of viewing others' successful nationalistic efforts.

    Nationalism would not be so much of a problem in terms of separating the Germanic peoples if we could conceive of a common Germanic nation. I think the major thing that prevents our doing this is our different languages. It is much easier for people like me and, I think, RedJack and perhaps Anarch to conceive of a common English (or British in Anarch's case) nation that extends far beyond the island of Great Britain to cover huge portions of the earth, and I think that is because our different linguistic varieties are still mutually intelligible. But since I don't understand modern spoken Icelandic, Dutch, and Frisian, and have had to study to understand most of what I can in German and Scandinavian, I don't get the sense that our languages are quite as mutually intelligible as are the British, American, and Australian Englishes.

    But I don't think our languages have to continue to separate us in how we view ourselves. I think one of the primary hinderances to mutual intelligibility of the Germanic language varieties is due to state-imposed spelling reforms, which have for centuries driven wedges between our linguistic varieties and made those who speak them think of them as fundamentally different (I know that might sound far-fetched, so if anyone wants a defense of that statement, let me know, and I'll post a thread on it in the linguistics section where that sort of discussion belongs). If we as a Germanic nation had decided that it was important to us to be able to have scribes who could write down something in Breslau and send it to Birmingham or Brugges or Bergen and still have it understood, we would not have let our language become so fragmented. Had we done that, we would still be a single nation with a common national identity. Now I'm going to go out on my idealistic limb and say that I think we can, with effort, re-merge our languages — it wouldn't be nearly as easy as it would be for the Romance speakers to do so with their language, but we're smarter, right? Seriously, though, I think that such a goal must be envisioned and accepted by our various nationalist parties if we are to move toward a pan-Germanic nationalism. And until we do so, I think Germanics will continue to view other Germanics as foreigners. I know that Zyklop and Oskorei have said they don't see non-German and non-Swedish Germanics being treated poorly in their respective states, but I think that they would still be seen as foreigners, as non-nationals. I think the reason that we are all treated so well in Germany and Sweden is probably just due to innate Germanic hospitality, especially toward folks who are so good-looking

    (Note too that I don't think a Swiss-style linguistic federalism will work — English would dominate and take over, eventually even displacing German, and that would lead to resentment and fragmentation — remember that Swiss German, Swiss French, and Swiss Italian can only survive because of Germany, France, and Italy.)

    Are pan-Germanicism and nationalism incompatible? Not necessarily, but a lot of work has to be done to create a conception of a common Germanic nation in order to let the two ideologies mesh. It was a lot of work to get the various German states to see Deutschland über alles, and they still had more in common than we all have today. Without that kind of pan-Germanic nation-building at the social level — and I'm talking about huge efforts in language, arts, literature, culture, trade, tourism, &c. — I think nationalism will always be somewhat opposed to pan-Germanicism.

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    Post Re : Re: Are Pan-Germanism and Nationalism incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by saxonian knight
    when the by France occupied parts of Southern Netherlands all up to Somme river returns to the Diets people and the Diets state. Same caunts for Elsass-Lothringen.
    Up to the Somme river. A good one. At best I give you Dunkerque back. Elsass-Mosel? It smells death. Ho, just ask the people living there before.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.

    « -Oh my God, but you're a neo-nazi?!...
    -But why neo? »

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