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Thread: North-South Divide in England; Danelaw vs Anglo-Saxons?

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    North-South Divide in England; Danelaw vs Anglo-Saxons?

    As part of the Treaty of Wedmore, a boundary was drawn across England from London to the Mersey. South of this line, the laws and customs would be those of the English, under the rule of the King of Wessex. The land to the north and east of this line would be under Viking rule, with Scandinavian laws and customs. This Viking part of England became known as The Danelaw. Today, some historians refer to The Danelaw as 'Scandinavian England'.

    In The Danelaw, many warriors of the Vikings armies settled. Instead of wandering about, raiding and plundering, they started supporting themselves by farming and trading.

    The Vikings took control of English villages and estates within The Danelaw. Often they established new villages. We know that Vikings did this because of the kinds of names given to the villages they established, and the new names given to existing English villages.

    Farms and village communities needed both men and women to run them, so the Vikings would have had to find themselves wives. The people of The Danelaw may soon have come to think of themselves as more Viking than English.

    The descendants of Alfred the Great certainly thought of The Danelaw as 'Viking' and continued the effort to bring it back under English control. By the time this was eventually done, the Vikings had stamped something of their own character on the people, language, customs and administration of The Danelaw.

    Source.


    It is impossible to know how many Scandinavians settled in The Danelaw. It may have been many thousands. Or it may have been just a few thousands.

    However many Scandinavians settled here, they must have had a lot of influence and power, if the language effects are anything to go by. As well as affecting the names of so many places and landscape features they had a powerful effect on the everyday language of the people.

    The Vikings spoke Old Norse which, like the Old English spoken by the Anglo-Saxons, had a Germanic origin. A few hundred years before the Viking Age, the two languages must have been very similar, probably dialects of the same language. By the Viking Age they had developed into two distinct languages, though still similar in many ways.

    In The Danelaw, where the Vikings settled and started to merge with the English, there had to quickly develop a form of language which everyone could speak and understand, so that people could communicate with each other easily in matters of work, the home, trade and administration. If, for instance, an Old Norse speaker wished to discuss the sale of a horse with an Old English speaker, they would both understand that a horse sale was involved because the languages were similar enough for this. But because Old Norse and Old English had different rules of grammar, it could lead to confusion between it being one horse, or more than one horse, that was for sale! Many everyday incidents like this made it necessary for both languages to come together and be simplified so that there was no risk of confusion.

    Vikings affected the language spoken throughout England and, today, we can identify many words which were 'loaned' to English by Old Norse, such as 'knife', 'take', 'window', 'egg', 'ill' and 'die'. There are probably about six hundred more 'loan' words of this kind in modern Standard English.

    But in The Danelaw the effect was much more powerful, going beyond 'loan' words to the creation of new Anglo-Norse dialects which were, in many ways, more Scandinavian than English. The 'traditional' dialects, amongst others, of Yorkshire, Lancashire, The Lake District and Lincolnshire emerged from this process.

    In Yorkshire, the Viking rulers divided the county into three separate units for ease of administration. The Old Norse word for a third of something (thrithjungr) became modified to 'riding', giving rise to the East Riding, North Riding and West Riding of Yorkshire. These administrative Ridings existed right from the Viking age until 1974, when they were dismantled by the UK Boundary Commission. Since 1974, Yorkshire people conscious of their heritage has pressed for the restoration of the ancient Viking Ridings. At the sub-shire county level, the Viking administrative unit was the 'vapnatak', which is expressed as 'wapentake' today. At the periodic meetings of the wapentake (a kind of local parliament and court) we believe the freemen vote by a show of weapons, which were then counted. The wapentakes still exist today for certain administrative purposes and they can be found marked on local maps.

    English and Scandinavian styles of art, craft and ornament also merged. As the Vikings became Christian, the combined Anglo-Norse style of decoration can be found on many stone crosses and 'hog-back' shaped gravestones in The Danelaw. There are the remains of more than 500 such gravestones and crosses in Yorkshire alone. Some are purely Christian in the subject matter of their sculpture. Others depict scenes from old Norse mythology, while some seem to combine both traditions.

    Source.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    I read somewhere that over 1400 places in England have Scandinavian names

    Over 600 places ends in -by (farm/town), examples: Grimsby, Whitby, Derby.
    Approx. 300 places contains the Scandinavian name -thorp (village) and -thwaite (an isolated piece of land, ex. Braithwaite) and about 100 places have names ending in -toft (a piece of ground).

    And also, several pronouns, prepositions and a part of the verb to be found their way into the English language by the Norsemen.

    Poorly written, I know I have several notes on these influences *somewhere*, but I can't find them now (of course)..
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    I read somewhere that over 1400 places in England have Scandinavian names
    There are also a great number of them in Scotland in fact, that are of potentially Germanic inspiration.

    I don't know about Aberdeen, because there are two ideas how it would have gotten its name:
    -Gaelic "aber" - Mouth and "dee" - River Dee, one of the two rivers
    -Germanic "aber-"/"ober-"/"über-" - across from/over and "don" - River Don, the other of the two rivers.

    [here I am clearly in favour of the Germanic version, for 1) Old Aberdeen is alongside river don and 2) the Inhabitants are called Aberdonians, 3) the local football club is referred to as the "Donners"]

    The same goes for Inverness, again two possible theories:
    -Gaelic "inbhir" - Mouth and "nis" - River Ness.
    -Germanic "inver" - Some proper name and "ness" - land sticking out (Compare all the "ness"es in Iceland and Norway )

    Edinburgh (aka Auld Reekie ) is again up to debate:
    -It could be the Scottish Englishequivalent to Odense - "Edin" - Odin and "burgh" (borough) is town.
    -Anglo-Saxon "edwin" - Edwin and "burh" - fort
    -it could equally be Gaelic - Din Eidhyn - Fort of Eidhyn

    Either way, what has clearly left its trace of Germanic influence is some of the street names up here:

    We have a "Netherkirkgate". "kyrka" = church, "gata" = street, "way to" in Aberdeen; etc.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    North-South divide in England; Danelaw vs Anglo-Saxons?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-South_divide_in_the_United_Kingdom

    There is also a perceived cultural divide between the north and the south. The It's Grim Up North BBC television series and subsequent book attempted to tease out some of these divisions.[22] Those in the north complained of having fewer cultural opportunities, such as theatre and museums; the book also provided a stereotypical view of southern life as faceless and bland.[22]

    Alcohol and fast food consumption are higher in the North, with the UK's 14 'fattest cities' to the north or west of the dividing lines mentioned above.[23]

    Moreover, in terms of English identity, the North of England was the home territory of the Angles, whilst the South and South East was Saxon territory, which could also account, culturally, for differences in both parts of England. Both groups descending from Nordic tribes, of course, but the Angles being more Scandanavian in their make-up than the more Germanic Saxons. In a recent Channel 4 programme, many DNA tests were taken from across the many regions of the British Isles. Of these regions, the North of England (not including Cumbria) showed genetic evidence of the native Celtic populations having been driven out and replaced almost entirely by Angles. Southern England showed genetic evidence of the Celts having been driven out by the invading Saxons.

    Many Midlands towns and cities appear, at least historically, to have more in common with their northern counterparts than with those in the south. This is mainly because they have a history of concentrated industrialisation and post-industrial economic depression (especially in Birmingham, Coventry and Stoke-on-Trent), plus the dry ironic humour which is borne out of this, rather than the nonindustrialised 'service centre' and 'county' towns and cities of southern England, which are perceived to be singularly dominated by London (where the purpose of those towns was essentially to service the capital). The 2004 film Once Upon A Time In The Midlands, starring Ricky Tomlinson, was made very-much in the character of straight-talking and dry humoured northern comedies.

    Another common observation regarding the North - South divide is the perception of group personality. It is often suggested that people are much friendlier, more open about themselves, more community minded, and more willing to express their emotions in the North, while Southerners, and more specifically inhabitants of London and the South East, are stereotypically portrayed as cool, aloof, reserved, devoid of emotion, preoccupied with privacy, and not terribly friendly. One often is reminded how in the North people take pride in knowing all the neighbours up and down their block, while Southerners will boast about not knowing who lives next door. Again, these are sweeping generalisations, but stereotypes such as these are prevalent in the British psyche.
    The divide is fascinating. Being in the North is like another country in terms of subtle differences in behaviour. The people are more open and brusque. More ready to speak their mind. Southerners are a little or a lot more aloof, depending on the individual. I have family in North (Leeds) and South although I am very much a southerner. Southerners are more entreprenurial & capitalist minded, northerners are more communal.

    I don't know if it's based primarily on proximity to London (the capital) or goes back to the Danish-Saxon divide. Or a mixture of those factors. I do not think the Irish immigration to the North is important.

    There is the old joke here in the south that people from the north of England are not really English, they are Danish from the Vikings.



    On the map I tried to divide between Northern and Southern England.

    See how close Worcester and Birmingham are for example. Worcester is culturally very "southern" whereas Birmingham is northern (although technically in the midlands, culturally so is northern). The rural area West of Birmingham near Shrewsbury may be culturally & linguistically Southern, I am not sure.
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    My mothers side of the family are Scott's and welsh but both families where first started by Danes(scotland) and Vikings(welsh) the welsh could be any number of nations but both side are both "originally" from over the sea....over they years they married only Scott's or welsh as they didn't seem to like the "English"

    through out history there are lots of reasons for this divide but the "races" that make up the people are just one of the starting reasons IMO
    Tasmanian twice the heads!!.......twice the intelligence!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theTasmanian View Post
    My mothers side of the family are Scott's and welsh but both families where first started by Danes(scotland) and Vikings(welsh) the welsh could be any number of nations but both side are both "originally" from over the sea....over they years they married only Scott's or welsh as they didn't seem to like the "English"

    through out history there are lots of reasons for this divide but the "races" that make up the people are just one of the starting reasons IMO
    As far as I'm aware "Danes" were never in Scotland as a force to be registered. If you have viking blood, besides the earlier cousins to the vikings, called Celts, from the Scots side? It will be Anglo Saxon or Norwegian and not Danish.

    Much of the east of Scotland is not Celtic but Anglo Saxon! This even surprises many Scots when they learn their true history. In the west of Scotland, Edinburgh, for example, its an English City, and mostly Anglo Saxon blood!Which in fact should be in England!

    Sean Connery, was born there yes! But he is not Scots his parents were Half Irish gypsy immigrants! A big SNP separatist just like the leader of the SNP is of Mongolian ancestry! Funny how those who make us dislike our own are not even of our blood? Yet pretend to be!

    Cumbria in northern England is more Celtic than many parts of Scotland! Infact the Scots dialect (Not to be confused with Scots Gaelic of the upper highlands) of today is closer to the English language of Chaucer of the 14th century than any other dialect! Which validates the Anglo Saxon-Norwegian bloodline, of much of the populace of lowland Scotland.

    As for you having viking ancestors from Wales,which is more than possible; which vikings is another matter? Though the word viking is a generic term mostly used for the latter raiders of the invasions from Scandinavia from the 7th century onwards. Even though they are the cousins to the Anglo-Saxons-jutes-Danes,etc. These later groups moved into Wales, rather than the later, Vikings who generally are called just vikings.Who are from Norway, Denmark and Sweden to a lesser extent.

    As for your ancestors did not seem to like the English? You mean the Anglo-Saxon-Vikings? That's highly unlikely as they were stronger, richer,and better looking than the Celts,who bathed every Saturday unlike the Celts who never bathed, and more enterprising, so to integrate only benefited the Celts. Off course there is always a minority that hates being overrun and will hold that grudge indefinably, even if they benefit and move to lands that they as a whole win,only for the traitors to try and separate, from their kith and kin, causing exactly what we have today, because we have too many envious traitors amongst us, so we are all polluted with this multi-cult.

    The US Americans did it for about a hundred fifty years,they have since changed their tune and now admire,their heritage, and their bloodline; now its being diluted or polluted, calling themselves patriots, when they were indeed the traitors.Australians have been doing it since 1901 though mostly from 1948 because of the traitors in government, the confused paddy and Catholic brigade have been the propagandists using the multi-cult, and now look whats happened.The tide is turning.

    Your a Taswegion living in Kalgoorlie? Two of my favourite places. Enjoyed many a good night in my prospecting days in Kalgoorlie.The last time I left on the prospector I had one hell of a hangover! Slept all the way to Perth!

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    Could any of you guys tell me what kind of blood the Stuart clan has? I have a tiny bit of Stuart blood on my maternal grandfather's side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SineNomine View Post
    Could any of you guys tell me what kind of blood the Stuart clan has? I have a tiny bit of Stuart blood on my maternal grandfather's side.


    Stuart is a word derived from Steward of Scotland. Where the Stuarts originate has been an intriguing question for many century's.

    The consensus is that they came over with the Viking-Norman-French from France,if they were Normans or Breton's is the big question?Though more likely they were Norman vikings who had mixed with Breton's. Ironic in a way because the Breton's as we know, had left Britain for the region now known as Britanny some hundreds of year before, because of the Anglo-Saxon-vikings for the most part.

    But one can determine that the Stuarts are not originally from Scotland, and are as new as the Normans are to the island.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angle View Post
    Stuart is a word derived from Steward of Scotland. Where the Stuarts originate has been an intriguing question for many century's.

    The consensus is that they came over with the Viking-Norman-French from France,if they were Normans or Breton's is the big question?Though more likely they were Norman vikings who had mixed with Breton's. Ironic in a way because the Breton's as we know, had left Britain for the region now known as Britanny some hundreds of year before, because of the Anglo-Saxon-vikings for the most part.
    The Stewarts were origianlly Fitzalan when they went to Scotland. They descend from the Lords of Dol in Brittany, supposedly descended from the early medieval rulers of Brittany.

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    well angle not to start a sh*t fight but the Scott side where put down on paper as "Danes" but then it was around 1033 or something like that

    they are part of Clan Donald if that's any help as to where their from in Scotland: i have to hunt up( my mother didn't talk about here side) an auntie who's over there she has all the family history

    the Welsh side is just on paper as started by "vikings" possible or not its there:



    ahahah Kalgoorlie attracts all types but for Tasmanians its sort of a traditional place to start the mining boom to try to make money......they could have told me it was very expensive to live here....so no more money than homeeyes:
    Tasmanian twice the heads!!.......twice the intelligence!?

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