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Thread: Fertility rates and its affects both personal and national

  1. #51
    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneEnglishNorman View Post
    What's the point of "our" mothers having high child birth rates? In countries already full of Turks & Pakistanis etc etc?

    Isn't it dumb to use wombs to out-compete leaky immigration policies??

    The thinking here is back-to-front.


    Agreed.......however 3 children is much better than none........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    The birth rate in the Third Reich rose from 14.7 in 1933 to 19.7 in 1938.
    So what? I asked you to substantiate your claim that there is "no intrinsic connection between technological development and low birth rates." I'm still waiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    So what? I asked you to substantiate your claim that there is "no intrinsic connection between technological development and low birth rates." I'm still waiting.
    The Third Reich was technologically advanced and had a relatively high birthrate, in science that is called disproved by counter-example.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    The instinct to preservation is in our genes which determine the basic elements of the national character.
    Homo sapiens sapiens and whales also have a self-destructive, suicidal instinct. The instinct for preservation has traditionally instructed Germanics to keep birth rates low. The Jewish success illustrates the impact of eugenics and low birth rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    A large number of children might diminish the resources of parents as individuals [...].
    Exactly! Poor families and poor, underdeveloped countries have high birth rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    However, high fertility certainly increases GNP and consequently the might of the nation.
    Examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    The Third Reich was technologically advanced and had a relatively high birthrate, in science that is called disproved by counter-example.
    (1) The birthrates in The Third Reich were not high if compared to non-European birthrates in the 1930s, (2) the causes of (relatively) high birthrates in the Third Reich are uncertain, (3) the technological level in any given society is not a result of a particular regime, but is rooted in the (individualistic, Germanic) cultural-historical heritage. Germany's high technological and civilizational level was established centuries before the Third Reich became a politico-historical fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    (1) The birthrates in The Third Reich were not high if compared to non-European birthrates in the 1930s
    Obviously we need to define high birthrates first, the definition itself is not a comperative one though. I think 3 children per woman is a high birthrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    (2) the causes of (relatively) high birthrates in the Third Reich are uncertain, (3) the technological level in any given society is not a result of a particular regime
    How is this relevant to the question whether a technological advanced nation can have high birthrates? The highest birthrates in Germany were in the early 20th century with around 5 children per woman, and as you just said yourself, Germany was already technological advanced back then

    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    The instinct for preservation has traditionally instructed Germanics to keep birth rates low.
    So why did Germanics then have much higher populations than most other countries in the ending 19th century?
    To preserve one has to be flexible, not static, since nothing is static itself in the real world.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Senior Member Rassenpapst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Homo sapiens sapiens and whales also have a self-destructive, suicidal instinct. The instinct for preservation has traditionally instructed Germanics to keep birth rates low. The Jewish success illustrates the impact of eugenics and low birth rates.
    Jews didn't have low birth rates in the Middle Ages. Because they typically worked as merchants or clerks the highly intelligent Jews could have more children.
    Exactly! Poor families and poor, underdeveloped countries have high birth rates.
    In poor, underdeveloped countries wealthier parents actually have higher birth rates.

    Examples?
    I already gave an example. France and Germany in the 19th century.

    In 1806 Napoleon kicked Prussian ass at Jena.

    In 1820 there were 30.3 million Frenchmen and the 26.1 million Germans.

    In 1940 there were 39.0 million Frenchmen and 80 million Germans.

    Fall Gelb led quickly to the defeat and occupation of France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Obviously we need to define high birthrates first, the definition itself is not a comperative one though. I think 3 children per woman is a high birthrate.
    3 children per woman is probably a high birthrate in a modern, Germanic-European context, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    How is this relevant to the question whether a technological advanced nation can have high birthrates?
    It is relevant to Rassenpapst's claim that "there is no intrinsic connection between technological development and low birth rates," and to your claim that "The Third Reich was technologically advanced and had a relatively high birthrate, in science that is called disproved by counter-example."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    The highest birthrates in Germany were in the early 20th century with around 5 children per woman, and as you just said yourself, Germany was already technological advanced back then
    If those numbers are correct, they seem to confirm my suspicion, that this was a long-term trend rather than the result of a specific policy or regime or ideology. Neither should we forget that Europe transported its population surplus to America in the 19th century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    So why did Germanics then have much higher populations than most other countries in the ending 19th century?
    Germanic Europe had a high population density, in part due to industrial capitalism, urbanization, advanced technology and social organization etc. etc. Asia has always had larger populations than Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    Jews didn't have low birth rates in the Middle Ages. Because they typically worked as merchants or clerks the highly intelligent Jews could have more children.
    Source? Btw, the Jews wasn't very succesful in the Middle Ages. Jewish success within Germanic societies is a modern phenomenon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    In poor, underdeveloped countries wealthier parents actually have higher birth rates.
    That's probably part of the explanation why they stay poor. I think "moral economy" is a term often used about non-individualistic societies with extended family structures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rassenpapst View Post
    High fertility certainly increases GNP and consequently the might of the nation. [...] I already gave an example. France and Germany in the 19th century. In 1806 Napoleon kicked Prussian ass at Jena. In 1820 there were 30.3 million Frenchmen and the 26.1 million Germans. In 1940 there were 39.0 million Frenchmen and 80 million Germans.
    Fall Gelb led quickly to the defeat and occupation of France.
    I'd like to see those numbers from reliable sources. Would also be interesting to know the GNP/GDP per capita...

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    Senior Member Rassenpapst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vingolf View Post
    Source? Btw, the Jews wasn't very succesful in the Middle Ages. Jewish success within Germanic societies is a modern phenomenon.
    The Jewish population had a high birth rate in the Middle Ages as the originally small diaspora population expanded to millions of people.

    See this paper for the social status of Jews between 800 AD and 1600 AD and how it elevated their intelligence: http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Pub...jbiosocsci.pdf

    That's probably part of the explanation why they stay poor. I think "moral economy" is a term often used about non-individualistic societies with extended family structures.
    No, there are relatively poor nations with low birth rates like Romania. The low birth rate makes them even worse off.

    I'd like to see those numbers from reliable sources. Would also be interesting to know the GNP/GDP per capita...
    http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atl...on/germany.htm

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    Given that Vingolf is making most of the arguments I'd make, I won't duplicate responses. Anyway, the GDP/GNP/capita figures, for all their imperfections, are essential, not just helpful. France did not industrialize to the extent and speed at which Germany did. The time period seems consistent to me with German industrialization, but I am not certain. If this is so, it would explain a massive populational explosion. Additionally, France's empire's decline could also explain a lot. Simply looking at statistics will not help; some extra information is necessary to understand why Germany's population was so high. From France's entry on the site Rassenpsast provided, it mentions family planning policies as being partially responsible for a lower population. I suppose if Germany had reverse policies to France and were more industrially advanced, it'd make sense.

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