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Thread: Communism: How Persistent Can a Failed Ideology Be?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matamoros View Post
    I must confess than when I was a teenager, around the age of 15 or 16, I supported the left in politics, and was very sympathetic to communism and multiculturalism. But I put it down to ignorance and propaganda from the left - since then I've learnt more and grown up - and now my views are the polar opposite. Down with communism!

    Education is the key. One of my brothers is now the same age as I was then, and I will try and talk to him about the truth behind communism, multiculturalism, and the left who would destroy us.
    I don't think this is uncommon. Communism comes out of a book as having high ideals and worthy goals but in practice something is always taken away from one to give to another which gets old and tiring unless you decide to be on the receiving end. The way you do this is by giving up. This is what happened to the Soviet Union, they all just gave up and stopped trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Also, let's not forget that a fair and unbiased discussion of Communism and the Russian revolution would make a certain people feel uneasy. eyes:
    The whole social democratic structure would be more open to public scrutiny. Don't forget that the social democrats had plenty of time in their domination of Sweden since 1933, to politicize every single authority and instance of bureaucracy. Other parts of society, such as corporations, especially big corporations, also adapted to the political climate, leaving little room for a truly alternative viewpoint. Libraries and librarians as well as school system and teachers are also used in this struggle. That's why they don't want for people to know about the crimes of their political tradition. It just suits them perfectly well that the account is unbalanced for as long as it is in their favour. Or, more specifically, in what they think is their favour. A lot of people just don't see the claustrofobic cell that confines them.

    I know that it may sound a little bit on the paranoid side, but it is just the reasonable result of a one-sided political dominance that never hesitated much to step on freedom of thought.
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  3. #23
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    When it comes to total repression and sheer brutality nothing beats Communism. That's why 4 out of every 5 Russians prefer it.

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    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Nobody has mentioned how many millions have been killed by the West since the end of WW2.

    Check the figures yourselves and tell me that there is no comparison. ( with a straight face :p )
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Nobody has mentioned how many millions have been killed by the West since the end of WW2.

    Check the figures yourselves and tell me that there is no comparison. ( with a straight face :p )
    If you are talking killings of domestic civilian populations, there has been little to none in western countries since WWII compared to 55 million in China and 3 million in Cambodia (most Soviet killings took place before&during WWII). If you are trying to include conflicts such as the ones in Korea and Vietnam, those are wars in which blame must lie on either the originator of the conflict (communist regimes of North Korea and North Vietnam) or on both parties, not on other countries such as the US which came in later to provide assistance to the South Koreans and South Vietnamese.
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    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwordOfTheVistula View Post
    If you are talking killings of domestic civilian populations, there has been little to none in western countries since WWII compared to 55 million in China and 3 million in Cambodia (most Soviet killings took place before&during WWII). If you are trying to include conflicts such as the ones in Korea and Vietnam, those are wars in which blame must lie on either the originator of the conflict (communist regimes of North Korea and North Vietnam) or on both parties, not on other countries such as the US which came in later to provide assistance to the South Koreans and South Vietnamese.
    How many in Latin America? Central America? Africa?

    How many in Iraq ? ( both ) Afghanistan ?

    Let's take Vietnam.

    The people of the south lived under a deeply unpopular leader , a legacy of the struggle to free themselves from French rule ( another western nation).

    The people of the south formed a popular movement , a massive grassroots movement , with the aim of joining with the north and accepting Communism. Their despotic leader was helpless and asked for US intervention. The only people the US were " assisting " were the despotic leadership and its cronies. The people of South Vietnam wished to join with the North. These people were the first people to be systematically bombed by the US , long before it bombed north Vietnam. You can blame the Commies if you want but the truth is that the people of the south , or lets say the vast majority , wished for unification and Communism. So who is really to blame for the millions of Vietnamese deaths in the subsequent conflict ?

    When I talk of the West it is not just the US

    Britain , France are right up there too.

    If people wish to be under a Communist/Socialist system that should be the end of it. Live and let live. But it is not , the West springs to the offensive and everyone disputes who is to blame when it all calms down.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk
    If people wish to be under a Communist/Socialist system that should be the end of it.
    I have no idea whether that's true about the South Vietnamese people, but let's assume it is. Clearly they didn't have a clue what it would be like to live under Communism.

    So then they were either ignorant, mad, or both and their will should be overruled for their own good

    Besides, this was about hindering the worldwide spread of Communism, not just about the South Vietnamese.

    The Commies are definitely to blame.

  8. #28
    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    I have no idea whether that's true about the South Vietnamese people, but let's assume it is. .
    Do some research then and you won't have to " assume " anything. I know it involves taking some time and effort but I think it is worth it to take the trouble. To assume has the potential to make an ass (out of) u (and ) me but fortunately I have took the time .

    Clearly they didn't have a clue what it would be like to live under Communism..
    Whatever their thoughts were they obviously prefered to give it a go and reject their contemporary Government.
    But that doesn't really matter because most fair minded people would say that each nation should have the right to decide its own leaders and political/economic system. No?

    So then they were either ignorant, mad, or both and their will should be overruled for their own good .


    I have crossed swords with you many times now Rhydderch , enough to know that anyone who disagrees with you is mad or ignorant , why should the South Vietnamese people be treated any differently ?
    Besides, this was about hindering the worldwide spread of Communism, not just about the South Vietnamese.
    Exactly. So why wrap it up in something different ? Why misrepresent the wishes of the South Vietnamese people? Why lie to the US public about it?

    I know why it is done and I know you do too. We had a wonderful line earlier in the week in another thread which stated the Wests " promotion of Democratic pluralism " I don't know how many others here saw the funny side of it but it tickled me. Okay so history is not everyones cup of tea but if you check it you will find numerous examples to the contrary.

    The Commies are definitely to blame.
    Are you ever likely to see it any other way?
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    Whatever their thoughts were they obviously prefered to give it a go and reject their contempory Government.
    But that doesn't really matter because most fair minded people would say that each nation should have the right to decide its own leaders and political/economic system. No?
    If the people of that nation have been lied to, or at any rate have a completely false view of a particular type of government, then it's not unreasonable to prevent them from having it. By definition, it's not fair minded to think you're obliged to let people harm themselves, simply because that's what they want.

    I have crossed swords with you many times now Rhydderch , enough to know that anyone who disagrees with you is mad or ignorant , why should the South Vietnamese people be treated any differently ?
    Treated differently from what?

    Are you ever likely to see it any other way?
    When turtles sprout from apple trees

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    Senior Member skyhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch View Post
    If the people of that nation have been lied to, or at any rate have a completely false view of a particular type of government, then it's not unreasonable to prevent them from having it.
    It is unreasonable . Infact I would deem it despotic , tyrannical , arrogant , etc etc

    You cannot , imo , claim to be the world champion in the promotion of democracy and then demand which political ideology countries around the world should employ and invade them if they don't submit ( Capitalism and nothing else )

    The US lied to their own people about who they were assisting in Vietnam. Here we are 30 odd years later and , as we have seen in this thread, people still are unaware of the lie that was told to them.

    Maybe someone should step in and free us from lying Western governments


    Treated differently from what?
    Anyone else that disagrees with you , I thought it was pretty clear

    When turtles sprout from apple trees
    Well with all the genetic meddling that's going on............... don't hold your breath.
    By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.

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