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Thread: The Holy Roman-Germanic Empire

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    The Holy German Empire

    My guess as to what is emerging right now on Planet Earth, is the emergence of the Holy German Empire.

    I base this guess primarily on:

    Houston Stewart Chamberlains anthology: "The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century" http://www.hschamberlain.net/grundla...on0_index.html

    Which depicts the rise and struggle Germanic cultural progression after the collapse of the Roman Empire.

    And on the work carried out by Bismarck and Hitler who jointly held the vision of unifying the Germanic peoples in Europe and beyond.

    Petty Nationalism is a thing of the past, what matters more is the Race.

    The Holy German Empire will be the crowning achievement of the White Race.

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    Re: The Holy German Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbionMP View Post
    Petty Nationalism is a thing of the past, what matters more is the Race.

    The Holy German Empire will be the crowning achievement of the White Race.
    Very true, even though it is not the "white race" a germanic state should strive for.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Re: The Holy German Empire

    I encourage also the union among Germanics, the union of nations in an Ultranation, but keeping each ones identity. However, it's a process than can take 200 years or more, there are still many differences among Germanic nations, like between France and England, or Finland and Sweden just to say a couple.
    It will be very difficult to shift that, because many of them are problems from centuries ago. EU was an attempt but it doesn't seem to have been effective, on the contrary it produced integration in a way but problems in others (you can explain this better than me obviously).

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    Re: The Holy German Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Very true, even though it is not the "white race" a germanic state should strive for.
    Agreed.

    The Holy German Empire is an ideological aim.

    A State, Germanic or non-Germanic should be concerned with Political Pragmatics.

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    Re: The Holy German Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbionMP View Post
    The Holy German Empire is an ideological aim.

    A State, Germanic or non-Germanic should be concerned with Political Pragmatics.
    The Third Reich was drenched with ideology. And this turned out to be its weak point. Too much ressources were put into propaganda, in order to make the people fit for their task. The high-brow personnel maliciously would find out the numerous contradictions soon. (E.g. it was a great damage of Hitler's prestige first to pact with Stalin, then to "break his word" etc. Bismarck could sweep away such things with a smile.)

    It isn't that easy to change life and mind of a whole poeple. If you are going to do this, you should be aware that it takes much time and great efforts, enduring efforts. Hitler did not succeed in this respect. Only the youth was inspired, the elderly not. I dare say there was no NS over 20 outside the party.

    Bismarck, on the other hand, did not care about ideology at all. He was conservative to the bones. But, in laying a solid foundation, maybe he changed the German character more than Hitler.

    My heart is with Hitler. My brain is with Bismarck.

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    Re: The Holy German Empire

    If we look at things in terms of Centuries, there is the general pattern of an Emerging Germanic Empire.

    As we know the Roman Empire separated between the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries.

    The cause for the collapse and seperation was primarily due to the pressure put on the Romans by the Germanic tribes prior to the 4th century.

    I would say that between the 1st century and the 4th, that there was long war of attrition between Rome and the divided Germanic tribes to the north [Tacitus, "The Annals of Imperial Rome"].

    The eventual outcome was a Victory for the divided Germanic tribes.

    This brings us to the crux of the problem, since because the Germanic tribes were divided when they conquered Rome, the spoils, i.e. the Empire, was also divided. This still remains the case.

    Some effort was made with the Holy Roman Empire, to create a new Empire, but this was halted in 1630 with the Thirty Years War and 'The Peace of Westphalia'.

    The 'Peace of Westphalia' took away power from the central German states, leaving Europe under the control of Britain, France and Russia.

    Bismarck reversed some of this by unifying some (not all) of the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire, into the modern state called Germany.

    Hitler went further by calling for even greater unity of the German speaking peoples, in other parts of Europe.

    Both men were committed to the unification of the Germanic tribes, and the building of the Holy German Empire.

    It is quite correct to separate Ideology from the Politics. However we need both in the face of the growing attacks on all our lands.
    Last edited by AlbionMP; Monday, December 4th, 2006 at 02:12 PM.

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    The Holy Roman-Germanic Empire

    ..................(from WIKIPEDIA)





    The Holy Roman Empire and from the 16th century on also The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was a political conglomeration of lands in Central Europe in the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Emerging from the eastern part of the Frankish Empire after its division in the Treaty of Verdun (843), it lasted almost a millennium until its dissolution by Napoleon in 1806. By the 18th century, it still consisted of most of modern Germany, Bohemia (now Czech Republic), Austria, Liechtenstein, Slovenia, Belgium, and Luxembourg, as well as large parts of modern Poland and small parts of the Netherlands and Croatia. Previously, it had included all of the Netherlands and Switzerland, and parts of modern France and Italy (see: Maps below). In the 18th century, when the Empire was already in decline, Voltaire ridiculed its nomenclature by saying that the Holy Roman Empire was "neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire".










    The Holy Roman Empire was an institution unique in world history and therefore difficult to grasp. To understand what it was, it might be helpful to assess first what it was not.

    It was never a nation state. Despite the German ethnicity of most of its rulers and subjects, from the very beginning many ethnicities constituted the Holy Roman Empire. Many of its most important noble families and appointed officials came from outside the German-speaking communities. At the height of the empire it contained most of the territory of today's Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czech Republic and Slovenia, as well as eastern France, northern and part of central Italy, western Poland and western Croatia. Its languages thus comprised not only German and its many dialects and derivatives, but many Slavic languages and the languages which became modern French, Dutch and Italian. Furthermore, its division into territories ruled by numerous secular and ecclesiastical princes, prelates, counts, imperial knights, and free cities made it, in the early modern period at least, far less cohesive than the emerging modern states around it.
    However, during most of its time it was more than a mere confederation. The concept of the Reich not only included the government of a specific territory, but had strong Christian religious connotations (hence the holy prefix). Until 1508, German Kings were not considered Emperors of the Reich until the Pope had formally crowned them as such.
    The Reich contained a number of Prince-Bishoprics and can thus best be described as a cross between a state and a religious confederation.



    The name of the Empire, in various (modern successor) languages spoken within its confines:

    Croatian: Sveto rimsko carstvo njemačkoga naroda
    Czech: Svatá říše římská, later: Svatá říše římská národa německého
    Dutch: Heilige Roomse Rijk, later Heilige Roomse Rijk der Duitse Natie/Volkeren
    French: Saint Empire Romain Germanique
    German: Heiliges Römisches Reich [ˈhaɪlɪgəs ˈrøːmɪʃəs raɪç] listen (help·info) , later Heiliges Römisches Reich deutscher Nation [ˈhaɪlɪgəs ˈrøːmɪʃəs raɪç ˈdɔɪtʃɐ nɑˈʦjoːn]
    Hungarian: Német-Római Császárság
    Italian: Sacro Romano Impero
    Latin: Sacrum Romanum Imperium, later Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationis Germanicae [ˈsakrʊm rːoˈmɑːnʊm ɪmˈpɛːrɪʊm nɑʦɪˈoːnɪs ʤɛrˈmɑːnɪʧe]
    Polish: Święte Cesarstwo Rzymskie Narodu Niemieckiego
    Serbian: Sveto rimsko carstvo nemačke narodnosti
    Slovene: Sveto rimsko cesarstvo, later Sveto rimsko cesarstvo nemške narodnosti


    Structure and institutions :

    From the High Middle Ages onwards, the Reich was stamped by a most peculiar coexistence of the Empire with the struggle of the dukes of the local territories to take power away from it. As opposed to the rulers of the West Frankish lands, which later became France, the Emperor never managed to gain much control over the lands that he formally owned. Instead, the Emperor was forced to grant more and more powers to the individual dukes in their respective territories. This process began in the 12th century and was more or less concluded with the 1648 Peace of Westphalia. Several attempts were made to reverse this degradation of the Reich's former glory, but failed.

    Formally, the Reich comprised the King, to be crowned Emperor by the pope (until 1508), on one side, and the Reichsstände (imperial estates) on the other.







    The long decline :

    The actual end of the empire came in several steps. After the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, which gave the territories almost complete sovereignty, even allowing them to form independent alliances with other states, the Empire was only a mere conglomeration of largely independent states. By the rise of Louis XIV of France, the Holy Roman Empire as such had lost all power and clout in major European politics. The Habsburg emperors relied more on their role as Austrian archdukes than as emperors when challenged by Prussia, portions of which were part of the Empire. Throughout the 18th century, the Habsburgs were embroiled in various European conflicts. From 1792 onwards, revolutionary France was at war with various parts of the Empire intermittently. The Empire was formally dissolved on August 6, 1806 when the last Holy Roman Emperor Francis II (from 1804, Emperor Francis I of Austria) abdicated, following a military defeat by the French Army under Napoleon (see Treaty of Pressburg). Napoleon reorganized much of the empire into the Confederation of the Rhine. This ended the so-called First Reich. Francis II's family continued to be called Austrian emperors until 1918. Germany itself would not become one unified state until 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War. In addition, at the time of the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire following the First World War, it was argued that Liechteinstein as a fief of the Holy Roman Empire (supposedly still incarnated in Liechtensteiner eyes at an abstract level in the person of the then-destitutued Austro-Hungarian Emperor, despite its formal dissolution in 1806) was no longer bound to Austria, then emerging as an independent monarchy which did not consider itself as the legal successor to the Empire. Liechtenstein is thus the last independent state in Europe which can claim an element of continuity from the Holy Roman Empire.











    Analysis :

    It has been said that modern history of Germany was primarily predetermined by three factors: the Reich, the Reformation, and the later dualism between Austria and Prussia.[1] Many attempts have been made to explain why the Reich never managed to gain a strong centralized power over the territories, as opposed to neighboring France. Some reasons include:

    The Reich had been a very federal body from the beginning: again, as opposed to France, which had mostly been part of the Roman Empire, in the eastern parts of the Frankish kingdom, the Germanic tribes were much more independent and reluctant to cede power to a central authority. All attempts to make the kingdom hereditary failed; instead, the king was always elected. Later, every candidate for the king had to make promises to his electorate, the so-called Wahlkapitulationen (election capitulations), thus granting the territories more and more power over the centuries.
    Due to its religious connotations, the Reich as an institution was severely damaged by the contest between the Pope and the German Kings over their respective coronations as Emperor. It was never entirely clear under which conditions the pope would crown the emperor and especially whether the worldly power of the emperor was dependent on the clerical power of the pope. Much debate occurred over this, especially during the 11th century, eventually leading to the Investiture Controversy and the Concordat of Worms in 1122.
    Whether the feudal system of the Reich, where the King formally was the top of the so-called "feudal pyramid", was a cause of or a symptom of the Empire's weakness is unclear. In any case, military obedience, which – according to Germanic tradition – was closely tied to the giving of land to tributaries, was always a problem: when the Reich had to go to war, decisions were slow and brittle.
    Until the sixteenth century, the economic interests of the south and west diverged from those of the north where the Hanseatic League operated. The Hanseatic League was far more closely allied to Scandinavia and the Baltic than the rest of Germany.
    German historiography nowadays often views the Holy Roman Empire as a well balanced system of organizing a multitude of (effectively independent) states under a complex system of legal regulations. Smaller estates like the Lordships or the Imperial Free cities survived for centuries as independent entities, although they had no effective military strength. The supreme courts, the Reichshofrat and the Reichskammergericht helped to settle conflicts, or at least keep them as wars of words rather than shooting wars
    The multitude of different territories with different religious denominations and different forms of government led to a great variety of cultural diversification, which can be felt even in present day Germany with regional cultures, patterns of behavior and dialects changing sometimes within the range of kilometers

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    another picture :



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    The Holy Roman Empire

    The Holy Roman Empire

    Introduction

    The Holy Roman Empire (official name: sacrum romanum imperium, 1254; more details below) designates a political entity that covered a large portion of Europe, centered on Germany, from 962 to 1806.

    Origin and Evolution

    The Holy Roman Empire originates in the eastern half of Charlemagne's empire, divided after his death. In 800, Charlemagne had received from the pope the title of Emperor (Imperator Augustus), reminiscent of the title held by Roman emperors, both in the Rome of old and in the Byzantium of the time. By 911 eastern and western Franconia, as the area was known, had completely separated, the latter continuing as the kingdom of the Franks, or France; the former continuing as the kingdom of Germany. In 962 Otto I the Great reclaimed the imperial dignity which had lost all prestige and was conferred by popes on bit players in Italian politics. This is usually taken to be the founding date of the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire (HRE) never achieved the political unification that France did; a prolonged attempt at centralizing authority starting with Maximilian I (1493-1519) was wrecked by the Reformation and the ensuing wars, culminating with the Thirty Years War (1618-48) and the Treaty of Westphalia (1648). The latter formalized the relationship between the Emperor and his vassals, who thereby achieved all but complete sovereignty. As a result, the HRE was still composed at the end of the 18th century of around 360 distinct entities, differing widely in size, rank and power. Some were kings and princes, other were counts; some were clerics, other were secular rulers.

    The nature of the Holy Roman Empire: limited elective monarchy

    The HRE evolved over time into a limited elective monarchy, and at the same time a state composed of many states. At its head stood an elected emperor (Kaiser), who was the sole sovereign and monarch of Germany. The exercise of his power was considerably limited, however, by a body representing the member states, the Imperial Diet (Reichstag). Although the various princes and lords of the Empire were all his vassals and subjects, they possessed a number of privileges that brought them close to de facto sovereignty; in particular, the emperor could not intervene in their particular affairs as long as they ruled according to the law. The Empire was an elective monarchy since the end of the Carolingian dynasty in the early 10th century, although the principle was not firmly set in writing until the constitution of 1338 and the Golden Bull of 1356 (see a picture here and the text here). Later, as part of every electioral capitulation, the newly elected emperor swore not to make his office hereditary.
    The Empire was also a limited monarchy, in the sense that any exercise of the Emperor's powers that was not purely executive required the assent of the States of the Empire. This principle was only formulated at the peace of Westphalia in 1648, where (art. 8, sect. 2) the circumstances requiring the assent (and not merely the advice) of the States were listed explicitly. This assent could be expressed either by the States assembled in the Reichstag, or through a duly constituted deputation; the latter means rarely employed after the Diet became permanent in 1663. Assent was determined by majority voting, except in specific matters where consensus was required, mainly in religious matters.
    Parts 1, 2 and 3 of this page are devoted to the Constitution of the Empire: executive, legislative and judicial branches of government, respectively. Part 4 looks at the geographical and political structure of the Empire: that is, the sub-units that made it up.

    Sources of law

    The fundamental documents on the constitution of the Empire were the following (several of these documents, and many others from the 9th to the 14th c., are available at the Erlangen Institut für Geschichte): The Official Name of the Holy Roman Empire

    The word imperium appears in official documents of Otto I, but it denotes the imperial power, not the territory. After Henry II's death some Italian magnates offered the crown of Italy to the son of the duke of Aquitaine, and swore to help him acquire the "imperium" of the Romans; here, the word meant the title itself. One has to wait until Conrad II to find Romanum imperium used to designate the lands ruled by the emperor (documents of 1034 and 1038). Curiously, the expression Romana res publica is used with the same meaning contemporaneously. The use of the phrase Romanum imperium remains rare under Henry II (in 1049, 1053) and successors until Frederic I. It is however, occasionally used in non-official documents, such as letters, chronicles, even Papal encyclicals (in 1076).
    At the same tine, one finds the expression Romanum regnum (Roman realm) in an official document of 1041. In 1045, the signature of the emperor is described as signum regis invictissimi Henrici tertii, Burgundiorum primi, Romanorum secundi. Correspondingly, the title Rex Romanorum makes its apparition in 1040, and is officially adopted in the Intitulatio in 1041 and in the monogram in 1043.
    The use of Romanum imperium becomes considerably more frequent under Frederic I Barbarossa (in 1152, 1155, 1157-9, 1162), In 1157, one finds a concurrent use of sacrum imperium et diva res publica (holy empire and holy commonwealth). The phrase sacrum imperium is found again in 1161, 1164, 1174, 1184-6. In 1159, one finds sacratissimum imperium, a phrase occasionally encountered until Otto IV.
    The two expressions Romanum imperium and sacrum imperium are used concurrently in official documents for a century, but one does not find the two together until 1254: sacrum Romanum imperium. From that date, the new phrase never falls out of use although the shorter formulas continue to be used commonly.
    Official documents in the German language show the phrase heiliges Reich or Römisches Reich frequently in documents of Ludwig of Bavaria, but heiliges Römisches Reich is rare; it first appears in 1340. It becomes common with Charles IV (1347).
    The last transformation of the official name of the Empire took place in the late 15th c. A Reformation issued at the Reichstag of Frankfurt in 1442 speaks of dem heiligen Römischen Reich und Deutschen Landern. A similar phrase appears at the Reichstag of 1471: des heiligen Römischen Reichs und der widrigen Teutschen Nation (in Latin: sacri Romani imperii ac celeberrimae nationis Germanicae), and in the Landsfriede of Nürnberg of 1487: dem heiligen Reiche und deutscher Nation, the Landsfriede of 1486: das Römische Reich Teutscher Nation, the Worms diet of 1497: das heilige Reich Teutscher Nation, and the Köln diet of 1512: des heiligen Römischen Reichs Teutscher Nation. The phrase entered the Wahlkapitulation of 1519, by which the emperor promised to reside within dem heiligen Römischen Reiche Teutscher Nation.
    From the late 16th c. to the 18th c. jurists debated the meaning of the phrase. Other early 16th c. documents suggest that it originally may have meant the German part of the Empire, with deutsche Nation in opposition to fremde Nation. Interestingly, the debate in the 17th c. was whether the phrase meant that Germany happened to be an empire, or whether the Empire happened to be located mainly in Germany. Increasingly, jurists and writers used the phrase imperium Romano-Germanicum. Significantly, the final acts of the Holy Roman Empire, namely the Reichsdeputationshauptschluß of 1803, the note of the French ambassador of August 1, 1806 and the abdication of Francis II, all use the phrase Deutsches Reich (confederation germanique) rather than the formal title.
    (Source: Karl Zeumer: Heiliges römisches Reich deutscher Nation. in Quellen und Studien, Bd IV, Heft 2. Weimar, 1910.)

    (continues)
    the Holy Roman Empire

    Maps of Germany

    Holy Roman Empire 962-1806 (Germany)



    When men cease to fight — they cease to be — Men.
    “Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves.” Brendan Behan

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    For those of us with a build-in meme-repellent of monarchy ('absolutism'), I would ponder for one moment the fact that Henry the Lion, Welfish Duke of Saxony once held an empire within the empire until Emperor Barbarossa exiled the rebel duke in his old age.

    Compare this to our modern democracy, where Lincoln killed 600,000 Germanic/Celtics in order to 'preserve the union.'

    The Holy Roman Empire was a truly spiritual union, and not based on coercion, and thus, it did last a thousand years.

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