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Thread: Why Doesn't Evolution Get Rid of Ugly People?

  1. #31
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    How does that theory explain the evolution of the mongolid subraces where we have the strongly paedomorphic palaemongolids gradually changing into the more and more "progressive" (I dislike this term since it implies some kind of teleology) sinid neomongolids?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchmeifyoukhan View Post
    Some of you may remember having read a few years ago, on Skadi, a study from a scholar (may be) from the MIT according to which the phenomena of alpinization and of nordicization of formerly robust Upper Paleolithic European prototypes was largely the result of a mating strategy. According to this study, in Europe and in Asia, the preference for pedomorphic features when choosing ones wife, gave birth subsequently to pedomorphic offsprings, be it boy or girl. The reason for such a pedomorphic mating selection may be due to the fact that, in Europe and in Asia, because of the painfulness of agricultural works in cold climates, men were the holder of economic wealth and had therefore the final word when selecting their mates. Since the normal inclination of men towards women is pedomorphism, all European and Asiatic races would have been affected by this mating strategy.

    According to the same study, the contrary might be true for black Africans. As it was rightly pointed out in this thread, it seems that most contemporaneous negroids derive from pigmies or at least from short body bantuïd prototypes. Some of them may have crossed with non negroids, but it seems that most of the African evolutionary line was internal, and that the current diversity among black Africans is prevalently due to different strategies in the sexual competition. In that respect, one prevalent cultural characteristic of Black Africa is that women are the main contributor to economic wealth. Traditional African values show a lot of disdain for men being involved in production activities. Furthermore, the concept of fatherhood and the rewards of being the head of a genealogic line are not as strong in sub-Saharian Africa. Therefore, African women are much more involved in the selection process. It is up to them to chose their partner, which they achieve through a less inhibited approach towards sex. Accordingly, African women have concretized their ideal of overgrown males as fertilizers. According to anthropologists, there is no other continent than Sub-Saharian Africa where beauty contests are organized among males, with women as selectors. Thus may the “ugly” pigmy have turned into the modern African stallion.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by catchmeifyoukhan View Post
    Hence, it is not evolution which divert a race or a species from its way to beauty, but revolution and combination.
    Evolution is just the outcome of selective pressure, "revolution" and "combination" are just one of the pressure types.

    However good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    How does that theory explain the evolution of the mongolid subraces where we have the strongly paedomorphic palaemongolids gradually changing into the more and more "progressive" (I dislike this term since it implies some kind of teleology) sinid neomongolids?
    Due to a cultural change, however the disregard of climate pressure in this theory is flawed, but a good summary of sexual selection, IMHO.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    Evolution is just the outcome of selective pressure, "revolution" and "combination" are just one of the pressure types.

    However good post.


    Due to a cultural change, however the disregard of climate pressure in this theory is flawed, but a good summary of sexual selection, IMHO.
    This alledged cultural change is not mentioned in his theory, which explicitely mentioned peoples in Europe and Asia.

    PS: selection is just one factor of evolution
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    This alledged cultural change is not mentioned in his theory, which explicitly mentioned peoples in Europe and Asia.
    It mentions that cultures differ in what they consider beautiful and will select accordingly. Thus a different selective direction leads to the conclusion that the beauty ideal, and thus culture, must have changed.

    It would be flawed to reduce selection to mere sexual though, but that's how this theory would explain your question, now would you agree that a cultural change has taken place? Specifically in what is considered attractive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    PS: selection is just one factor of evolution
    Name another. Intelligent design?
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    It mentions that cultures differ in what they consider beautiful and will select accordingly. Thus a different selective direction leads to the conclusion that the beauty ideal, and thus culture, must have changed.

    It would be flawed to reduce selection to mere sexual though, but that's how this theory would explain your question, now would you agree that a cultural change has taken place? Specifically in what is considered attractive?


    Name another. Intelligent design?
    My problem was that it generalises and applies the same concept applies there aswell whereas this "change of culture" then must have occurred so early that the concept has never applied to them.

    How about mutation. Without mutation - no evolution and even if you select as much as you want.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    My problem was that it generalises and applies the same concept applies there aswell whereas this "change of culture" then must have occurred so early that the concept has never applied to them.
    True, specifically to group the whole of Asia as one is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    How about mutation. Without mutation - no evolution and even if you select as much as you want.
    Yes, however I said Evolution is the outcome of selective pressure
    And even without mutation you can have Evolution depending on the variety of different bases, e.g. right now we have pretty different individuals, so even if mutation stopped right now, we still could evolve from our current state, not better than the current best, and not worse than the current worst, but as a goup we can change.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
    True, specifically to group the whole of Asia as one is flawed.
    Of course these generalization about Eurasians v. Africans are a bit sketchy. Even in Europe, we are not sure that all males were hardworkers sweating for the confort of pedomorphic females. Tacitus depicted ancient Germans as all the more lazy as they were warlike, but was laudatory about the virtues and the patience of their wifes. The same could be observed with the ancient european nobility. A cultural revolution may have happened during the Dark Ages, or even later (I wrote something about this in another thread :
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3286 ).

    BTW, the reference book of Darwin about sexual selection is : " The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex" (1871). There is an extensive article on this issue in wikipedia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Des...elation_to_Sex

  8. #38
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    The following link provides an interesting article from the top scientists on this issue : (sex differences in human mate preferences : evolutionnary hypothesis tested in 37 cultures, by David M. Buss : http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...cesinHuman.PDF

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    Beauty is one of many characteristics that people look in a partner. Suppose the so called "ugly" people compensated in other areas such as intelligence, charisma, personality, etc, and still be successful in continuing their lineage. Just look at Sarkozy, I think people will agree with me that he is not the most attractive male in the world. Yet, his wives, and girlfriends (the most recent one being the Italian-French model Carla Bruni) are extremely so.

    But I really do think this thread is quite ridiculous, IMO. With people talking about progressiveness versus paedemorphism, etc. They do not define beauty. You can have either as still be beautiful. Beauty is something is affected by so many different things, with genetics playing a minor role. Even the ideal itself is different among different cultures, and among individuals. Having two supermodel parents does not guarantee beautiful children. The reverse is true as well, I've known stunning people whose parents were quite average, or even unattractive looking. Sometimes even in the same family there are extremely advantaged and disadvantaged children, in terms of looks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varangian_guard View Post
    But I really do think this thread is quite ridiculous, IMO. With people talking about progressiveness versus paedemorphism, etc. They do not define beauty.
    :oThat could be the final word closing the thread. But the thread was provoked by the referred article (see page 1) discarding beauty as a selective factor, which contredicts one of the most important Darwinian postulate.

    As we say in France, when we face inductive reasonings based on individual experiences, "exception confirms the rule". The fact that Sarkozy was elected dispite his short size and lack of regular traits, does not contradict the postulate.

    We are reasoning "ceteris paribus", meaning that when focussing our discussion on one selection factor (beauty), we are trying to evaluate the comparative weight of this selection factor with other factors such as wealth, intelligence, and kindness. Yet, something is sure, Sarkozy, dispite his intelligence is not unsensitive to beauty, verifying what Henry Miller said about Marylin Monroe : "My mind is in love with your body and your body is in love with my mind". At an individual scale, this does not warrant better offsprings, in terms of beauty or in terms of intelligence. But at a larger, statistic, scale, the mating strategy of Sarkozy is probably a winner strategy.

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