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Thread: Phenotype, Genotype and mtDNA/Y-DNA Markers

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    Phenotype, Genotype and mtDNA/Y-DNA Markers

    Markers by themselves obviously don't tell much about a persons phenotype (or genotype, for that matter). If I understand this correctly, you get the Y from your father's father's father's ... father, and mt from the maternal line. Doesn't this mean that the further back you go, the less markers tell you about the phenotype and even genotype of a given individual, I mean, one could have some completely foreign Y and still be infinitely more european by phenotype and genotype than foreign if one's forefathers all married europid women later on. Right? So, can Y's and mt's point to anything at all beyond migrations with accuracy?

    Let me ask this by giving an example first. We have an english atlanto-med and an english reihengräber on one side, and we have a slovene atlanto-med and a slovene alpinid on the other (this is purely hypothetical). How, in general, do relations work here? Are the english/slovene lads more closely related to each other (in terms of genes) than the english and the slovene meds are?

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    Re: Phenotype, genotype and mt/Y markers

    Markers by themselves obviously don't tell much about a persons phenotype (or genotype, for that matter). If I understand this correctly, you get the Y from your father's father's father's ... father, and mt from the maternal line. Doesn't this mean that the further back you go, the less markers tell you about the phenotype and even genotype of a given individual, I mean, one could have some completely foreign Y and still be infinitely more european by phenotype and genotype than foreign if one's forefathers all married europid women later on. Right? So, can Y's and mt's point to anything at all beyond migrations with accuracy?

    Let me ask this by giving an example first. We have an english atlanto-med and an english reihengräber on one side, and we have a slovene atlanto-med and a slovene alpinid on the other (this is purely hypothetical). How, in general, do relations work here? Are the english/slovene lads more closely related to each other (in terms of genes) than the english and the slovene meds are?
    A genetic marker is any difference in DNA, no matter how it is detected, whose pattern of transmission from generation to generation can be tracked. Each individual who carries the marker also carries a length of chromosome on either side of it, so it marks a particular region of the genome. The different Y-chromosomal or mitochondrial haplotypes/groups do not necessarily contain active coding regions that are expressed in the phenotype, and if they do, I doubt there are regions in either of these chromosomes that affect morphology or mental traits. These haplogroups/types are more accurate in determining ancestral relations. A good example would be Finland. The haplogroup N, which is east Eurasian of origin, is the most common haplogroup , yet even clear-cut Uralid affinities are uncommon.

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    Re: Phenotype, genotype and mt/Y markers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromoljut View Post
    Markers by themselves obviously don't tell much about a persons phenotype (or genotype, for that matter).
    Phenotype, no, not at this stage at least. As for genotype, markers are nothing more than specific parts of your entire genotype that were chosen because they remain untouched through several generations, unless a mutation occurs and you get a subtype and hence another marker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromoljut View Post
    If I understand this correctly, you get the Y from your father's father's father's ... father, and mt from the maternal line. Doesn't this mean that the further back you go, the less markers tell you about the phenotype and even genotype of a given individual, I mean, one could have some completely foreign Y and still be infinitely more european by phenotype and genotype than foreign if one's forefathers all married europid women later on. Right? So, can Y's and mt's point to anything at all beyond migrations with accuracy?
    Haplotype/haplogroup markers are nothing more than that: markers. They are portions of genetic data that remain untouched and are spread in a predictable way. They can tell you nothing beyond hereditary borders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromoljut View Post
    Let me ask this by giving an example first. We have an english atlanto-med and an english reihengräber on one side, and we have a slovene atlanto-med and a slovene alpinid on the other (this is purely hypothetical). How, in general, do relations work here? Are the english/slovene lads more closely related to each other (in terms of genes) than the english and the slovene meds are?
    Again, a certain phenotype does not equal a certain haplogroup, those we can speculate (and in some cases very precisely) to what certain haplogroups a specific phenotype fits more into.
    You last question uses physical anthropology types, which are more mutable and adaptive than genetic markers.
    To answer your question, let's splits your individuals (calling them respectively A, B, C, D).
    Now, the rule of thumb is simple: regardless of individual phenotype, the markers tell your "ancient ancestry" your common origin.
    For the sake of the argument let's say both A and C are R1b (the traditionally accepted correlation for the Atlantid types is R1b). Yes, they are closer, regardless of cultural boundaries, than C and D (both slovenes but D being of other haplotype) in terms of common ancestry.
    I hope I was of some help.
    That people breed with those they find attractive within their own ethnic population is all the eugenics I think is necessary. - Milesian

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    Re: Phenotype, genotype and mt/Y markers

    Yeah, thanks for the enlightening replies

    But I see my question was somewhat misunderstood. I know two individuals are "related" in the familial way if they share a common haplogroup, which effectively means they share an ancestor. Let me elaborate on what I meant with relation: an R1b atlanto-med in britian has a son with woman of a different type. His son inherits the R1b and has in turn a son with a woman of the same/similar type as his mother, and so on, for a few hundred years. The slovenian atlanto-med goes through more or less the same process.
    Now, the modern descendants of these two lines are, the way I see it, more related to their respective cultural kin than to each other, and even though they share the same phenotype, their genes are, except for the Y marker and the phenotype-encoding ones, rather "unrelated" - is this so? Is it at all possible? And, is the other way around also possible, like two russians with R1a, one corded and one gorid?

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    Re: Phenotype, genotype and mt/Y markers

    What you mean by "more related to their cultural kin" is merely a cultural border.
    For example, say you take a baby, whose phenotype is, strictly speaking, Nordic, born of English Anglo-Saxon culture parents and raise him in with foster parents in Sweden. There, the cultural divide is broken and phenotype is not a barrier at all because it is common in both cultural groups.
    Now, genetically, each human is a singular entity, your are as much differentiated from any other "Slav" as from any other "Germanic" or "Romance" or "Tutsi".
    Now, you do have traits that you share, namely inherited traits, which you share with all the people that descend from a specific mutation-carrying individual. Don't forget that millions of Europeans are descended from one single individual and his subsequent descendants who suffered posterior mutations.
    Now, in the example you use, a R1b is always genetically closer to any other R1b than to a R1a. Phenotype is a different matter because, like I said, phenotypes are highly mutable and can change within 2-3 generations (within a certain cline of course), and are highly adaptive.
    So, for example, let's say you have two Russian females (A, B) and two Italian females (C,D);
    the Russians are A = Hp I B = Hp J
    the Italians are C = Hp I D = H

    this means that A and C, though even with different cultures and distinct phenotypes, are genetically much closer than A and B.

    Now, the interesting part, for me at least, is correlations.
    If we can correlate phenotypes (for example, in a given study analyze all female members' phenotype of group I in several european countries) we can reach certain average conclusions, namely about skin pigmentation, bone structure, etc, though these are not encoded by singular genes, but that's a different subject.
    That people breed with those they find attractive within their own ethnic population is all the eugenics I think is necessary. - Milesian

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    AW: Phenotype, genotype and mt/Y markers

    Let me answer it that way: A "racially pure" Negrid variant could have the ultimate Northern European and Nordid markers both by y- and mtDNA. Just think of an American or Jamaican Negroid who had out of 100 ancestors two European ones, and both passed their y- and mtDNA whereas all other traits disappeared in the following generations and "lost" against the vast majority of Negrid genes. This is probably not that likely, but its at least thinkable. I mean not even hint in the phenotype, but a singe and simple marker in the sex chromosoms which shows that "there was some admixture somewhere back in time".
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