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Thread: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

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    Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    Here we have a map of European genetic clusters from another thread.



    Because this map is based on 10,000 markers, that come from both parents, we can reasonably assume it is a much better indicator of phenotype than single gene Y-chromosome or mtDNA data, or even both. It's just pure statistics...the more markers you use the more likey that you have a better view of the overall genome, which obviously affects our phenotype.

    I've taken this a step further and drawn on the map several areas that I think correspond to phenotypic regions in Europe.



    The four main sub-racial areas of Europe, that occasionally overlap to produce various other phenotypes.

    Blue: Northern Cro-Magnid types with Uralic influence.
    Pink: Northern Cro-Magnid types
    Green: Atlantid
    Grey: Mediterranean types

    So as we can see I don't consider Nordid to be a sub-racial category, but rather a mix of Atlantid and Northern Cro-Magnid.

    Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.

    Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.

    Here's a link to the excellent new report where I got this map from...

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...466/44466.html

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    Re: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    This is excellent work, Polak. You promised us something like this and you have delivered.

    Comments:
    I cannot see the "German" dots. Why couldn't the "Nordids" be either blue or pink or an overlap of the two rather than green and pink? I guess it is the whole mixed subtypes which will be the most problematical. You seem to be saying: Ladagon=Blue, UP(in general)=Pink, Atlanto-Med (although a Cro-Magnon type not a Med. type)=Green, Med.=Grey.

    In this case (Blue) Ladagon would be a UP type on its own, not a reduced type as Coon claims. The (Pink) UP type would include both Bruenn and Borreby, the (Pink) Atlantid would have to be a reduced version of the classice French Cro-Magnon people, and the (Grey) Meds would just be the recent, 10,000 year old or so, agricultural peoples from the East.

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Re: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    This is excellent work, Polak. You promised us something like this and you have delivered.

    Comments:
    I cannot see the "German" dots. Why couldn't the "Nordids" be either blue or pink or an overlap of the two rather than green and pink? I guess it is the whole mixed subtypes which will be the most problematical. You seem to be saying: Ladagon=Blue, UP(in general)=Pink, Atlanto-Med (although a Cro-Magnon type not a Med. type)=Green, Med.=Grey.

    In this case (Blue) Ladagon would be a UP type on its own, not a reduced type as Coon claims. The (Pink) UP type would include both Bruenn and Borreby, the (Pink) Atlantid would have to be a reduced version of the classice French Cro-Magnon people, and the (Grey) Meds would just be the recent, 10,000 year old or so, agricultural peoples from the East.

    Ok, the second graph is my work.

    Why can't you see the German dots? They are light blue. Interestingly, one German is way down south....Turkish influence?

    Anyway, yes, I guess you could say that the blue is Ladogan, but it's more complex than that. I don't think Ladogans really ever existed. All we have in NE Europe is just Uralic admixture that affects the local types in similar ways, giving them a slight Mongoloid appearance.

    Most Finns don't look Ladogan, but they still cluster in that area. That's because most Finns look Baltid, Borreby, even Brunn, and Nordid, but with some Uralic admixture.

    The pink is Borreby, Brunn, Baltid, Faelid.etc. To me, these types are just regional variations of the same thing, and they seem to overlap anyway. And these days, with environmental factors being similar in Europe, it's even more confusing. For example, we have many (west) Baltids now looking like Faelids because they've grown in size.

    And yes, the green represents populations from from France and Iberia, that eventually became the classic Atlantids of the western fringe of Europe.

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    AW: Re: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak View Post
    Why can't you see the German dots? They are light blue. Interestingly, one German is way down south....Turkish influence?
    Take care that your (genetically determined?) all-too-Polish anti-Germanism doesn't devaluate your otherwise nice work.

    PS: I wouldn't classify Armenian types as "Mediterranean". They rather form a separate group together with other Caucasid and Taurid, perhaps also Littorid varieties.

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    AW: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak View Post
    Here we have a map of European genetic clusters from another thread.



    Because this map is based on 10,000 markers, that come from both parents, we can reasonably assume it is a much better indicator of phenotype than single gene Y-chromosome or mtDNA data, or even both. It's just pure statistics...the more markers you use the more likey that you have a better view of the overall genome, which obviously affects our phenotype.

    I've taken this a step further and drawn on the map several areas that I think correspond to phenotypic regions in Europe.



    The four main sub-racial areas of Europe, that occasionally overlap to produce various other phenotypes.

    Blue: Northern Cro-Magnid types with Uralic influence.
    Pink: Northern Cro-Magnid types
    Green: Atlantid
    Grey: Mediterranean types

    So as we can see I don't consider Nordid to be a sub-racial category, but rather a mix of Atlantid and Northern Cro-Magnid.

    Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.

    Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.

    Here's a link to the excellent new report where I got this map from...

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...466/44466.html
    This is still just a start and there can be no direct correlation between the subracial types of Europe and genetic markers which are older than they are, just a partial or indirect one in certain cases. F.e. a French of the "Finnish cluster" because of his ancestral markers could very well be a Gracilmediterranid racially.

    Its very important to note that f.e. Cromagnoid is per se neither Northern nor Southern, but there is, like in the Aurignacoid spectrum, a Northern (core group: Dalofaelid) and Southern (core group: Berberid) flank.

    Polak, you made the big mistake of confusing old genetic relations, which are primarily the result of very old prehistoric migrations, with subracial categories, racial types, which are a form of adaptation to a special habitat and way of living.

    So as we can see I don't consider Nordid to be a sub-racial category, but rather a mix of Atlantid and Northern Cro-Magnid.
    Nordid is for sure a subracial category because it has a distinctive specialisation and trait combination, no matter if it was the result of Mediterranoid migration Northwards, a mix of Mediterranoid with Cromagnoid, of Atlantid Mediterranoids with Cromagnoid or just a derivative of Atlantid Mediterranoids or Cromagnoids etc.

    Same with this:
    Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.
    This would result in a very lose definition of Mediterranean which makes the term almost useless. I suggest to refer in such cases to Northern and Southern Europid rather than "Mediterranean".

    Furthermore they evolved out of both Mediterranoid, Cromagnoid and partially Nordoid elements in hundreds and/or (depending region) thousands of years. Their head form was influenced through their habitat and way of living, but thats true for all racial characteristics. They are in any case inherited and the phenotypical variation because of environmental influences in on or two generations is present, can be important, but is never decisive in a way like making an Dinarid or Armenid a Mediterranean, thats absurd!
    Just because f.e. some Dinaroid or Armenoid people would get some mm longer heads doesnt mean they become Mediterranid, not even Mediterranoid! They cannot look "fully Mediterranean" with the exception of a useless definition of "Mediterranean". Its well known that f.e. certain facial traits have a very high heritability, and those dont chance even if assuming a strong change of the head shape which is, to a significant degree very unlikely in a typical ("racially pure") bloodline too.

    Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.
    Trends of Alpinisation took place outside of Europe too and resulted sometimes even in very similar phenotypes, so I'd say that they can be both derivates of Northern as well as Southern Europid forms of the Cromagnoid wider spectrum.

    Otherwise nice trial!

    Even though I criticised various points and could do so for some more, its good to try such things with whats available now, even if knowing the limitations and that one should be very careful. On the long run it will become more precise and promising.
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    Re: AW: Re: Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pervitinist View Post
    Take care that your (genetically determined?) all-too-Polish anti-Germanism doesn't devaluate your otherwise nice work.
    I have yet to see the slightest "anti-German" remark from Polak.

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