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Thread: [split] Silesia (Polish vs. German perspective)

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    [split] Silesia (Polish vs. German perspective)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    It doesn't sound like an arguement for either a Polish or German Silesia, just an independent Silesia. I give up, if it is not Polish or German, what is it? Who would live there? What language would they speak? What place names would they use?
    Well the answer is pretty simple. Since 990 Śląsk (or Schlesien) was a part of the Polish Kingdom. Just like Łużyce. It was inhabited by Polish-speaking Slavonic tribes (unlike the western Serbs who lived in nowadays eastern Germany - Łużyce).

    In 1138 the Kingdom was divided by the king into smaller states ruled by princes, ie. his sons. Members of the first Polish royal dynasty - the Piasts would rule as idependent sovereigns over their provinces. Indeed like in German Empire they would often compete and fight with each other. Some bits of Sląsk would remain in the hands of Polish Piasts until second half of XVII century. Cieszyn - Tshechen for instance until 1625.

    However with each generation there were more and more of such states - especially in Śląsk. When Poland was reunited by 1320 by the new king Władysław Łokietek failed to persuade the princes of the old provinces of Śląsk and Masovia to join his state. Masovia was an independent Polish state until 1526.

    Śląsk was largely influenced by the neighbouring Czech Kingdom. Monarchs of the Piast dynasty would often invite Germans to settle in and found new villages basing on the German law. They did so as well with the cities - founding and organisig them on the basis of the German Magdeburg law. Thus from mid XII and XIII century on Germans became a part of Schlesien. It's worth mentioning they were present in almost every larger Polish city.

    Gradually, however, (in XIV and XV centuries) these little states were unable to compete with the larger Czech Kingdom and some of them would become Czech dependencies. Poland was by that time was involved in the struggle against the Russians and Lithuanians in the east and the Teutonic Knights in north and (which were given land by a Polish prince Konrad Mazowiecki) and could not afford to wage war on Czechs.

    Then Poland united with Lithuania and soon also with Hungary and the Czech Republic into one great Kingdom ruler by Władysław Warneńczyk.

    The king however died at the great battle with the Ottoman armies at Varna in 1444. He tried to relieve the Byzantine Empire and defend his new realm. Hungary, Czech, Poland and Lithuania would continue to be ruled by members of the Polish royal family until 1526 when Polish monarch of the Czech Kingd. and Hungary was killed at the battle of Mohacz, fighting the Turks.

    By the treaty between the Habsburgs and the Jagiellonians (the new Polish-Lithuanian dynasty) Czech and Hungary should pass on to the Habsburgs.

    Since 1526 thus a part of Śląsk would become ruled by the Germans while the other one was still in hands of Piasts as independent states. German settling was to become more intense, however Habsburgs were relatively "liberal" and allowed Śląsk to maintain its autonomy.

    By XVII century Piasts were dying out and their realms being taken over by the Habsburgs (Poland constantly fought wars and battles with Sweden/Ukraine/Russia/Turkey/Tartars and Hungaro-Romanian "Siedmiogród" at that time). Idea of the access of Śląśk was considered many times, however.

    In the second half of XVII century the last part of Śląsk ruled personally by the Polish-Swedish monarchs of the Vasa dynasty would fall.

    Śląsk becam Prussian since 1741 and 1741 is the date it lost its autonomous status. Soon germanisation came, along with the official Prussian policy of German colonisation. In 1763 61,000 Germans were moved into Śląsk and throughout next 40 years some 100,000 more...
    Polish traditions and customs were banned. So were masses in Polish and Polish holidays. German was to be the official language.

    From 1764 people who could not speak German were forbidden to marry... Moreover, students would not be admitted without knowledge of German as the teachers were German...

    Similar policy would be introduced in XIX century to Polish Poznań (Posen). The problem was thus comparable to the Ulster issue in Ireland.

    Upper Śląsk would remain strongly Polish though - events of 1848 and 1920 are the best proof. On the other hand Lower Śląsk was strongly germanised by XX century.

    Now there are many Poles resetelled from the east living there apart from the "old Polish". There are bout 150,000- 200,000 Germans in Poland as far as I know and most of them live in Śląsk. Now as you can see the thing is a bit more complex than:

    "That's big shit! Schlesien is a part of germany and Schlesier are germans. It's part of the german empire and it belgs to no other state!"

    OR

    "My ancestors lived in Prussia/Silesia for CENTURIES!
    Now to read *polak* on their site makes me wanting to vomit!!! "

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    Re: Schlesien/Silesia

    Silesia is polish, was always slavic for Piast, Przemyslids dynasty and it is home of silesians - tribe of Poland, as Goplans, Lechians and others are.
    Local patriotism is fine, but if you want to create some special autonomy like jewish autonomy in FAAAAAAAAAAAAR east russia it is realy stupid.

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Quote Originally Posted by Stolem View Post
    The ethnicity and laguage of the original Silesians in the middleages was
    polish.Today the dialect of the "Silesians" is only a polish one.So they are poles....
    No, they are not

    These Poles are the descenders of Slavic invaders. Originally, Silesia was populated by Germanic tribes, the ancestors of the Germans, and only the Germans have rights on these lands.

    Its time Polacks gonna learn stop claiming what is not theirs, appolozize to Germany for its crimes against the German population of the eastern region and take full responsibility of the outbreak of WWII and the Bromberg masacre in 1939.
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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Quote Originally Posted by saxonian knight View Post
    and only the Germans have rights on these lands.
    neandertals and dinosaurs to?

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Quote Originally Posted by some_one_number_one View Post
    neandertals and dinosaurs to?
    If they are German, yes

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Quote Originally Posted by saxonian knight View Post
    No, they are not

    These Poles are the descenders of Slavic invaders. Originally, Silesia was populated by Germanic tribes, the ancestors of the Germans, and only the Germans have rights on these lands.

    Its time Polacks gonna learn stop claiming what is not theirs, appolozize to Germany for its crimes against the German population of the eastern region and take full responsibility of the outbreak of WWII and the Bromberg masacre in 1939.
    Slavonic tribes reached as far as Netherlands in the North and otherwise as far as river Elbe to your knowledge. They inhabited the whole German Pommern once. Berlin was a Slavonic "grod"... Is your head spinning yet???

    Obviously you know little about the Slavs and the Germans and the range of their settlements.

    Crimes? Is this some kind of joke??? I reckon most of the crimes you can imagine were commited by the Germans on us...

    To Apologise? Yes that's the word some people will probably never master... Poland has got nothing to apologise for. We got our lands back and nobody now will dare to ask for them. We are american dependency and Germany knows it very well and will not do anything. It even can't... as for now it's much troubled with its receding population, immigrants, Turks in Berlin, growing socialism and decay of national spirit... Once you tackle these things you may go on if you want... and ask us for Schlesien and Pommern. By that time we'll be ready and awaiting...

    You'd better watch you Dutch socialists in case they are planning to import some new armies of fast-breeding foreigners. By what date will the Netherlands become mostly Asian-African? 2100? 2150? Well, if you speed up your abortions and euthanasia and other demoralising policies perhaps even by 2050!

    By the way... how is the Dutch pedophile party doing???

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl_Sigvald View Post
    They inhabited the whole German Pommern once.
    How is this an argument against an invasion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl_Sigvald View Post
    Obviously you know little about the Slavs and the Germans and the range of their settlements.
    This varys a lot by which country's history book one has read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarl_Sigvald View Post
    We got our lands back and nobody now will dare to ask for them.
    True, but so many Poles are jumping ship and are settling in Germanic lands, like you, why would you even care about this land?
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    AW: Re: Schlesien/Silesia

    You're obviously phantasizing your idiosyncratically Polish version of history here in order to justify the genocide commited by your ancestors against the German population of Schlesien and other eastern parts of the Reich.

    This is a gross misrepresentation of the actual history of the settlement of Schlesien by cherry-picking some assorted facts in a selective way while letting other, more essential ones that don't fit in your Polonocentric vision fall under the table. The most important question is, of course, the demographic one. How many ethnic Slavs ("Poles") were there when the German settlement gained momentum in the 11th century? And how many Germans lived there until 1945.

    The political association of the region with Polish, Bohemian or German rulers is one thing (and in the end not a very important one), the question which people inhabited the land, another. There is no question that from the 13th century onwards, the major part of Schlesien was almost exclusively inhabited by Germans, no matter what phases of non-German political rule may have been interspersed between periods of German rule.

    What is relevant for the contemporary discussion are not the intricacies of medieval history, but the facts about the genocidal expulsion of millions of Germans from their native land. This is one estimate:

    Die Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reiches wiesen 1939 eine Bevölkerung von 9.620.800 Menschen auf (davon 45.600 Nichtdeutsche). Von diesen entfielen auf

    * Ostpreußen: 2.488.100 Einwohner (davon 15.100 Nichtdeutsche)
    * Schlesien: 4.592.700 Einwohner (davon 16.200 Nichtdeutsche; Zahlen der Bevölkerung Zittaus enthalten)
    * Pommern: 1.895.200 Einwohner (davon 11.500 Nichtdeutsche)
    * Ost-Brandenburg: 644.800 Einwohner (davon 2.800 Nichtdeutsche)

    [...]

    Die Bevölkerung der Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reichs wurde in den Jahren 1944 bis 1949 durch die Vertreibung der Deutschen und die Neuansiedlung von Polen, Ukrainern und Lemken bzw. Russen fast vollständig ausgetauscht. Ein Teil der Neuangesiedelten (zwischen 1,4 und 1,9 Millionen Polen) war selbst im Rahmen der Westverschiebung Polens und, im Fall der Ukrainer und Lemken, der Akcja Wisła (Aktion Weichsel) aus ihrer weiter östlich gelegenen Heimat vertrieben worden.

    Die Provinzen wiesen folgende Zahlen auf:

    * Ostpreußen: 2.209.200 Vertriebene
    * Schlesien: 3.587.300 Vertriebene
    * Pommern: 1.761.700 Vertriebene
    * Ost-Brandenburg: 597.500 Vertriebene

    Insgesamt mussten 8.155.700 Deutsche die Ostgebiete verlassen. Nach Schätzungen sind bei den Vertreibungen weitere rund zwei Millionen Deutsche ums Leben gekommen, insbesondere in Ostpreußen, Pommern und Ostbrandenburg. In den Ostgebieten leben heute noch etwa 400.000 Deutsche, hauptsächlich in Oberschlesien. Sie wurden bis zum Zerfall des kommunistischen Systems diskriminiert.
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostgebi...tschen_Reiches

    If you deny these facts, then may your God forgive you (or rather not).

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    Re: AW: Re: AW: Schlesien/Silesia

    Invasion??? What??? I mentioned Pommern as this fellow probably imagines that Poles and Slavs used to live on Alaska and to Europe by late XIX century...

    Which lands? Pommern and Schlesien??? I am simply sick of wars and arguments. These lands were once Slavonic, then became German and now are Slavonic again. I do not ask the Russians for the lands we lost in the East. That's what we are now and that's our country. If anyone wants to detach them, blood will be shed again...

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