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Thread: The British Gene Pool

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    The British Gene Pool

    But geneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The implication that the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh have a great deal in common with each other, at least from the geneticist’s point of view, seems likely to please no one. The genetic evidence is still under development, however, and because only very rough dates can be derived from it, it is hard to weave evidence from DNA, archaeology, history and linguistics into a coherent picture of British and Irish origins.

    http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives...ed_kingdo.php#

    It is a shame that genetics had to emerge during the time of the post war Western democracies. In such a leftist dictatorship climate, it is hard to have an objective reality on European racial origins. The Federal Republic of Germany for example (a new and improved Weimar Republic) has made it impossible to dig for the truth of European origins…the argument from popular opinion is something like 'the Nazis did that’ and the counter argument by a brave vocal minority in the West is ‘anthropology existed long before the Nazis’. With regards to the Indo Europeans…going as far back as 1820’s their racial composition was under close study.

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    Re: The British gene pool

    Actually, the geneticists appear to be saying that the base is similar, but that the admix differs. Stephen Oppenheimer, one of the geneticists in question, says: "By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory... ...75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity"

    He also points to a divide between eastern england and the west: "Genetic evidence suggests that the division between the West and the East of England does not begin with the Anglo-Saxon invasion but originates with two main routes of genetic flow — one up the Atlantic coast, the other from neighboring areas of Continental Europe. Scandinavian influences, stronger than suspected, may outweigh West Germanic influence. "

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    Re: The British gene pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Interested View Post
    Actually, the geneticists appear to be saying that the base is similar, but that the admix differs. Stephen Oppenheimer, one of the geneticists in question, says: "By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory... ...75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia... Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity"

    He also points to a divide between eastern england and the west: "Genetic evidence suggests that the division between the West and the East of England does not begin with the Anglo-Saxon invasion but originates with two main routes of genetic flow — one up the Atlantic coast, the other from neighboring areas of Continental Europe. Scandinavian influences, stronger than suspected, may outweigh West Germanic influence. "
    Great topic. I've read Oppenheimer's book on British origins which draws from a lot of important studies. Some of which advocate genocide, while Oppenheimer concludes that invader admixture is minimal. It's really hard to tell because the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype is found even in the North sea and Scandinavian areas. I wouldn't rule out any viking or saxon genocide, but it would be difficult to prove by dna alone. My opinion is that there may have been many male Brits killed in the early years of invasion, but it was limited overall.

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    Re: The British gene pool

    "concludes that invader admixture is minimal. "

    40% in areas of East Anglia, Yorkshire and other parts of Eastern England is "minimal"?

    "The regional physical stereotypes familiar to us today, a pattern widely thought to result from the post-Roman Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions - red-headed people in Scotland, small, dark-haired folk in Wales and lanky blondes in southern England - already existed in Roman times. Insofar as they represent reality, they perhaps attest the post-Ice Age peopling of Britain, or the first farmers of 6,000 years ago." - Simon James

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    Re: The British gene pool

    [QUOTE=Interested;769622

    40% in areas of East Anglia, Yorkshire and other parts of Eastern England is "minimal"?

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you are referring to the town of Fakenham in Oppenheimer's book. Sure, it is possible that there are alot of Frisian R1b haplotypes and haplogroup I (from the North Sea area) from invasion, but that is just one town taken from one study of several towns in the Midlands and East Anglia. The Romano-British males of the Fakenham area were probably decimated in a battle with invaders, but that does not mean an on-going genocide was occurring. Oppenheimer's estimate for invasion admixture is low overall for Eastern Britain, somewhere around 5% at most. It is also possible that those types could have been going back and forth since the Mesolithic when Britain was still connected to the continent until about 7,500 BC? and not due to a later invasion.

    5% seems a little low to me as well. From what I've read about this topic the research doesn't always account for Iberian haplotypes which still show up in significant numbers in western Norway, Denmark, north Germany, etc. Genetically, they are the same haplotype as most early Britons. Yet, they too could have been among the Saxons and the Vikings.

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    Re: The British gene pool

    If input of the Anglo-Saxon invaders was low, then why did English displace Brythonic as the language of England? The theory that English was an indigenous language to Britain before the Anglo-Saxon conquest is probably false. British refugees from the Anglo-Saxon conquest who went to Brittany spoke a Brythonic dialet. Brythonic is also the native language of Wales & Cornwall, and was also spoken in northwestern England & southwestern Scotland. So it would appear that English was the language of the conquering Angles, Saxons & Jutes. And for some reason it displaced the native Brythonic, yet 400 years of Roman rule did not make Latin, or a Romance offshoot of Latin, the language of the Britons. Why is that?

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    Re: The British gene pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Madoc View Post
    If input of the Anglo-Saxon invaders was low, then why did English displace Brythonic as the language of England? The theory that English was an indigenous language to Britain before the Anglo-Saxon conquest is probably false. British refugees from the Anglo-Saxon conquest who went to Brittany spoke a Brythonic dialet. Brythonic is also the native language of Wales & Cornwall, and was also spoken in northwestern England & southwestern Scotland. So it would appear that English was the language of the conquering Angles, Saxons & Jutes. And for some reason it displaced the native Brythonic, yet 400 years of Roman rule did not make Latin, or a Romance offshoot of Latin, the language of the Britons. Why is that?
    The Britons in my estimation were looking for social order more than anything after the Romans left and with the Picts invading from Scotland. The Saxons were militaristic and were able to conquer with relatively small mobile armies. The Britons social order was in upheaval in the 5th century. With that, the Britons adopted English and Saxon culture. Basically, the natives had to submit and adapt or be wiped out. Those that fled the Saxon advance preserved the Brythonic in the west of the isles. I just don't believe a massive population replacement is needed to change language, culture, etc.

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