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Thread: Matriarchal Societies in Pre-Celtic Europe

  1. #31
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    AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundahar View Post
    Matriarchy in Europe is not fiction but was reality. It is almost undisputed by historians that the european stone-age societes were matriachaly organized.
    Fortunately we have overcome the stone-age. The neolithic invasion of Indogermanic peoples introduced patriarchy and Europe started to take shape.
    The germanic women also held a special status with the old germanic societies.
    The Germanic woman was excluded from the Thing and thereby held no political influence. I wonder what these modern feminist heathens would say about returning to this status and abolish female suffrage.
    Woelvas
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    Marginal exceptions to the above rule.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


  2. #32
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    AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie View Post
    Smart-ass.

    Men need women to keep them under control, it's as simple as that. Men left to their own devices become disorderly, violent, lacking morality, decency, compassion, empathy and integrity, and will seek to exploit anyone who is weaker - regardless of whether it's wrong or right.
    Total bullshit. I wonder how monastries or even armies worked back then. There were no women and it was in complete order. I even think the opposit is true that men if left on their own without women are much more capable of fine and civilisated behaviour. The women are the ones making (heterosexual) men to animals and they exploit this trait of men to get their own benefits. Your description of the female pic proves my thesis and men are no more animals than women. On the contrary males are much more rationally when women are not involved.
    Ceterum censeo Iudaeam esse delendam.

  3. #33
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    Re: AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    I didnt say anything about matriarchies in Europe! Anyway, there were some matriarchies in Europe, too, just think about the Pelasger or Agäer in old Greece. Or, in a global view, Cleopatra and on Thera (Santorin).

    Here is a nice site:

    http://wiki.matriarchat.net/wiki.pl

    Its in German, but at least a source where you can get informations.

    You didnt say anything about matriarchies in Europe, but you should have, because you are supposedly proEuropean, as a member of Skadi. And you should have provided the reasons why matriarchy would be a better system for us today as a whole, not just for women.

    Unfortunatel i dont speak or read German.

    What about the "Pelasger"?

    What are the "Agaer"?!

    And what about Santorini?

    I dont know of any kind of matriarchy existing on these places/peoples. If you do, provide some accurate information on it.

    In 'old Greece' as you say, the only known case of women being overly respected, not a matriarchal society, pay attention, just a place where women were ALSO considered sacred besides men, is Crete. Crete in the time of the Minoans, about 1000 bc. But even in that case, Crete was ruled by a male King, Minoas, whose name the labeling 'Minoans' comes from..

  4. #34
    Senior Member Gundahar's Avatar
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    AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    Fortunately we have overcome the stone-age. The neolithic invasion of Indogermanic peoples introduced patriarchy and Europe started to take shape.
    Just that what you think that "patriarchy" is, was never a part of germanic or celtic culture. It was a part of jewish, hellenic and romanic culture. Through Christianity the Celts and the Germanics were blessed (or rather cursed) with the rule of foolish old men too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    The Germanic woman was excluded from the Thing and thereby held no political influence. I wonder what these modern feminist heathens would say about returning to this status and abolish female suffrage.
    Marginal exceptions to the above rule.
    The saga of Hervor and king Heiđrek

    It is said that in king Harald's host there was a leader who was called Brúni. He [Brúni] was the wisest of all the men who were with him [Harald]. He [Harald] had Brúni draw up the troops in battle array and arrange the captains under their banners. King Harald's banner stood in the middle of the host, and his bodyguard was about his banner. These champions were with king Harald: Svein, Sám, Gnepi the old, Garđ, Brand, Blćng, Teit, Tyrfing, Hjalt; they were king Harald's skalds and champions. These were from king Harald's bodyguard at home: Hjört, Borgar, Beli, Barri, Beigađ, Töki. There was the shieldmaid Visma and another, Heiđ, and each of the two had come with a large host to king Harald. With her [Visma] were these champions: Kári and Milva. Vébjörg was the name of the shieldmaid who came to king Harald from south of Gotland with a great host, and many champions followed her. The greatest and most glorious of them all were Ubbi the Frisian, Brat the Irishman, Orm the Englishman, Búi Brámuson, Ari one-eye, Geirálf. A great Wendish host followed Visma shieldmaid. They were of distinguished appearance, they had long swords and bucklers, but they did not have long shields like other people. And in the other wing of king Harald's army was Heiđ shieldmaid with her banner, and she had with her a hundred champions. These were her berserks: Grím, Geirr, Hölmstein, Eysöđull, Heđin the slim, Dag the Liflander, Harald öláfsson. There were many captains with Heiđ in the wing.


    Ok, lets count: Here we have a short passage of an ancient text and it alone mentions five shieldmaidens named Visma, Heiđ, Vébjorg, Kári and Milva. Three of them are leaders, two of them are "just" champions.

    They are followed by and they command:

    13 named, male Champions, Berserkers and Captains

    100 unnamed Champions

    But certainly these women, were "marginal exceptions to the above rule". I ask you, would you as a champion follow one of these five "marginal exceptions to the rule"? Would 113 famous warriors follow "marginal exceptions to the rule"?


    Original text:

    Hervarar saga ok Heiđreks konungs

    Svá er sagt, at í her Haralds konungs var höfingi sá er Brúni hét. Hann var allra Ţeira manna vitrastr, er međ honum váru. Hann lét Brúna fylkja liđinu ok skipa höfđingjum undir merki. Stöđ merki Haralds konungs í miđri fylkingu, ok var um hans merki hirđ hans. Ţessir kappar váru međ Haraldi konungi: Sveinn, Sámr, Gnepi inn gamli, Garđr, Brandr, Blćngr, Teitr, Tyrfingr, Hjalti; Ţeir váru skáld Haralds konungs ok kappar. Ţeir váru heiman ör hirđ Haralds konungs: Hjörtr, Borgarr, Beli, Barri, Beigađr, Töki. Ţar var skjaldmćrin Visma ok önnur Heiđr, ok hefir hvártveggi komit međ mikinn her til Haralds konungs. Visma bar merki hans. Međ henni váru Ţessir kappar: Kári ok Milva. Vébjörg hét enn skjaldmćr, er kom til Haralds konungs međ mikinn her sunnan af Gotlandi, ok fylgdu henni margir kappar. Af Ţeim öllum var mestr ok ágćtastr Ubbi inn fríski, Bratr írski, Ormr enski, Búi Brámuson, Ari eineygi, Geirálfr. Vismu skjaldmeyju fylgdi mikill Vinda herr. Váru Ţeir auđkenndir; Ţeir höfđu löng sverđ ok buklara, en Ţeir höfđu ekki langa skjöldu sem ađrir menn. Ok í annan fylkingararm Haralds konungs var Heiđr skjaldmćr međ sínu merki, ok hefir hún međ sér hundrađ kappa. Ţeir váru berserkir hennar: Grímr, Geirr, Hölmsteinn, Eysöđull, Heđinn mjövi, Dagr lífski, Haraldr öláfsson. Ţar váru margir höfđingjar međ Heiđi í arminn.
    "There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." Samuel Huntington

  5. #35
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    AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundahar View Post
    Just that what you think that "patriarchy" is, was never a part of germanic or celtic culture.
    Interesting, what exactly do I think that "patriarchy" is, other than a male dominated society - which unquestionably was prevalent among Germanic and Celtic people?

    It was a part of jewish, hellenic and romanic culture. Through Christianity the Celts and the Germanics were blessed (or rather cursed) with the rule of foolish old men too.
    If before Christianity they occasionally followed the hallucinations of old women, I don´t know if this was so much better.
    Ok, lets count: Here we have a short passage of an ancient text and it alone mentions five shieldmaidens named Visma, Heiđ, Vébjorg, Kári and Milva. Three of them are leaders, two of them are "just" champions.

    They are followed by and they command:

    13 named, male Champions, Berserkers and Captains

    100 unnamed Champions

    But certainly these women, were "marginal exceptions to the above rule".
    Indeed I consider a female/male ratio of 5 : 113 (~4%) a marginal exception in a male dominated society. But even if it would be 50:50, as long as you can´t prove that such a composition was the norm, I can validly call the whole report a marginal exception to the rule too. As far as I know, most reports about Viking raids only acknowledge male warriors.
    Tolerance is a proof of distrust in one's own ideals. Friedrich Nietzsche


  6. #36
    Senior Member Gundahar's Avatar
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    AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    Interesting, what exactly do I think that "patriarchy" is, other than a male dominated society - which unquestionably was prevalent among Germanic and Celtic people?
    And that is what's not true. It was not male dominated. It was not female dominated either. It was a natural supplementation of both sexes in varius positions within society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    If before Christianity they occasionally followed the hallucinations of old women, I don´t know if this was so much better.
    They had a patriarchy none the less. That's a known fact and undisputed. Like Christianty, for the hellenic society the biggest threath and enemy were women. They named them Amazons (Uma Soona). Even within the Ilias of Homer, they come to help to defend Troy and slaughtered half of the Greek Army. They were their arch-enemies, known to live in a city named Themyscra, which was situated in Hyperborea, which is a synonym for the unknown lands of the north. Ok, enough of this, you dont have to take this as the complete truth, but there is certainly some truth within. History melds into mythology, like the mytholical war between the Vanir and the Aesir is thought to be based on historical facts too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyklop View Post
    Indeed I consider a female/male ratio of 5 : 113 (~4%) a marginal exception in a male dominated society. But even if it would be 50:50, as long as you can´t prove that such a composition was the norm, I can validly call the whole report a marginal exception to the rule too. As far as I know, most reports about Viking raids only acknowledge male warriors.
    Very wrong my friend. In fact the women outnumber the men by 3 to 1 here. You just mix up the levels of command. On the higherst level of command there is King Harald. The level of command below him (leaders) consists of one man namend Bruni and three women Visma, Vebjork and Heid. On the lower levels of the command chain the women may be outnumbered, but they were sufficiently existant. Nobody claims that there were more ordinary female warriors, than male warriors in germanic armies. But that does only count for germanic armies, because there are records that claim that within Bouddiceas army there were whole bands of female warriors.

    But we are just talking about the aspect of war here, and war is traditionally the domain of men even in ancient celtic or germanic cultures. So you can realize what was going on within the other parts of life, which were not so much "male dominated".
    "There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." Samuel Huntington

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    Re: AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    'Matriarchy' was a figment of the imagination of anthropological theorists drunk on Nineteenth Century notions of 'Progress'. It never existed in Europe in any meaningful sense, nor anywhere else in a healthy ethnos. The Chinese example arose through a peculiar historical set of circumstances. Patriarchy as such never existed in prehistory either, it's merely a caricature invented by those who invented matriarchy.

    That the likes of Gimbutas took it up in the sixties and onwards shouldn't surprise anyone, nor should it persuade us to lend too much credence to the idea.

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    Re: AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gundahar View Post



    They had a patriarchy none the less. That's a known fact and undisputed. Like Christianty, for the hellenic society the biggest threath and enemy were women. They named them Amazons (Uma Soona). Even within the Ilias of Homer, they come to help to defend Troy and slaughtered half of the Greek Army. They were their arch-enemies, known to live in a city named Themyscra, which was situated in Hyperborea, which is a synonym for the unknown lands of the north. Ok, enough of this, you dont have to take this as the complete truth, but there is certainly some truth within. History melds into mythology, like the mytholical war between the Vanir and the Aesir is thought to be based on historical facts too.


    Please dont be ridiculous.

    Amazons were said to inhabited in Anatolia on islands of the far far eastern meditteranean sea, nowhere near northern europe.

    Where have you heard such crap, like that the Amazones were a part of the Trozan war, or that they ...killed half the greek army?? LOL

    Amazones in a myth are said to have been totally destroyed by Hercules, who also killed their Queen because he got angry with them or something..their Queen's name: Hippolyte. They were supposed to live in Asia Minor, close to the Caucasus.

    Achilles also killed a queen or princess Amazon who fell in love with him during fighting with him, but he didnt spare her, due to the disrespect i guess, of fighting him.

    Women were certainly not 'the biggest enemy of the hellenic society', i wonder in what kind of idiotic misandrous, maybe gay, illiterate websites you ve read such information. And they certainly DIDNT CALL WOMEN AMAZONES, you fool, women were called women. Amazones were called only the women i mentioned above. Unbelievable misinformation, i m not sure if you re deliberately lying or your sources are just complete shit

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gundahar's Avatar
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    AW: Re: AW: Matriarchy in Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by OMegasPan View Post
    Please dont be ridiculous.
    No, you shouldn't be ridiculous. Although you claim to be of hellenic origin, you seem to know a shit about your national epos.

    Quote Originally Posted by OMegasPan View Post
    Where have you heard such crap, like that the Amazones were a part of the Trozan war, or that they ...killed half the greek army?? LOL
    Did I allready mention, that you know nothing about the Iliad?

    Penthesilea was the queen of the Amazons and the daughter of Ares and Otrere. Penthesilea accidentally killed an ally Amazon queen (Hippolyte, Melanippe, or Glauce). To be purified of her crime, Penthesilea went to Priam. Apparently in return for Priam's help, Penthesilea, with her Amazons, entered the Trojan War on the side of the Trojans. She entered the war in its 10th and final year, after the death of Hector. According to Hellanikos, Penthesilea fought in the Trojan War so that she would gain glory. Hellanikos goes on to say that, in Amazon custom, an Amazon must gain glory in war (against men) before she could marry (Gantz, 621).

    Whatever the reason for entering the war, Penthesilea and the Amazons fought bravely and well. Penthesilea is said to have defeated Machaon, son of Asclepius, and Podarces, brother of Protesilaus. In the Aeneid, Aeneas sees the battle of Troy being depicted in murals/mosaics in a Carthaginian temple. In one of the frames, Aeneas sees and remarks upon the heroicism of Penthesilea:

    Furious Penthesilea leads a battleline of Amazons with crescent shields, and she glows in the middle of thousands fastening golden belts around the exposed breast, female warrior, and the maiden dares to run with men.


    With her she led to battle against the Greeks these following important Amazons: Clonie, Polymusa, Derinoe, Evandre, Antandre, Bremusa, Hippothoe, "dark-eyed" Harmothoe, Alcibie, Derimacheia, Antibrote and Thermodosa.

    Her successful battles caught Achilles' attention, and he slowly worked his way toward her so that he could face the famous Amazon. As he was about to face her, Chalcon of Cyparissus (who had fallen in love with Penthesilea) tried to deter him. Achilles swiftly killed Chalcon and his battle with Penthesilea soon ensued.

    Achilles defeated Penthesilea, but when he saw her beauty, he, like Chalcon, fell in love with the brave Amazon and quickly lamented his act.

    http://www.stanford.edu/~plomio/penthesilea.html


    Quote Originally Posted by OMegasPan View Post
    Achilles also killed a queen or princess Amazon who fell in love with him during fighting with him, but he didnt spare her, due to the disrespect i guess, of fighting him.
    You maybe dont know it, but Achilles fought and died during the Troyan War. What did you say, that there were no Amazons fighting at Troy? Well thats simply false. They fought there and did so well, killed so many greek heros and soldiers that they were almost from breaking. This was when Achilles challanged Penthesilea and killed her and so prevented a defeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by OMegasPan View Post
    Women were certainly not 'the biggest enemy of the hellenic society', i wonder in what kind of idiotic misandrous, maybe gay, illiterate websites you ve read such information. And they certainly DIDNT CALL WOMEN AMAZONES, you fool, women were called women. Amazones were called only the women i mentioned above. Unbelievable misinformation, i m not sure if you re deliberately lying or your sources are just complete shit
    I didnt take it from a "homosexual" website. Its not necessary to take this content from sites that have the practiced homosexuality of ancient greeks, which was an main element of hellenic culture, as main issue. Although there are enough sites of that. You are the posterchild for hellenic fear of women. Ignorance combined with fear and a minority complex, thats what your whole hellenic patriachy was and is about.
    "There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." Samuel Huntington

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    Re: Matriarchy in Europe?

    I just moved some OT [and OTT] stuff here;
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=81096

    This thread's a bit of a nonstarter anyway, but I left most of it here, in order that the concept of historical matriarchy might be discussed. Perhaps this was ill advised.

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